Doyle on Kaepernick

[Hoopsdoc]

Originally Posted by rm1369

Lee Atwater had a fairly famous quote that I believe applies to what I believe about the situation. It goes right along with the cries about “erasing history” when taking down monuments to confederate soldiers while also passing anti-CRT legislation to make sure you control how history is taught. The venn diagram for those three things would nearly be a circle. And to be fair, some of it isn’t blatant racism, it’s willful indifference. Willful indifference on the treatment of fellow Americans by people so caught up in “patriotism” they foam at the mouth when someone quietly kneels.

There are black guys who knelt during the anthem who are still playing today. It’s not about race for most people.

World War 2 was just a generation ago, Vietnam and Korea less than a generation. A LOT of people had family members or know people who fought and died in those wars. The flag means a whole hell of a lot to them. Same for people who are in the military now.

It’s pretty unfair to label all those people as racist.

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Hoopsdoc

There are black guys who knelt during the anthem who are still playing today. It’s not about race for most people.

World War 2 was just a generation ago, Vietnam and Korea less than a generation. A LOT of people had family members or know people who fought and died in those wars. The flag means a whole hell of a lot to them. Same for people who are in the military now.

It’s pretty unfair to label all those people as racist.

I’m a vet and I can tell you military status has very little to do with your view on kneeling. In fact a poll on VA.org shows 49% to 45% don’t view kneeling as disrespectful. As I’ve pointed out, the cross over between those who think kneeling is disrespectful, those who think removing confederate statues is wrong (people who killed US soldiers), and those supporting anti-CRT legislation is very, very high. That same group also largely supported a president who started making a name for himself by using race and you can clearly see it with their current politicians doing just what Atwater said. So it’s not about race, but coincidentally they keep consistently coming out on the side that racists do.

And you know what else isn’t really that long ago? The civil rights movement, Jim Crow, and lynchings. But that same group pretends that’s ancient history, so spare me on WWII - where African Americans were sent to die and then denied GI Bills their white counterparts received. If you care about the flag but not the people it represents you aren’t a fucking patriot. Doesn’t make anyone racist, just indifferent and selfish.

[Hoopsdoc]

Originally Posted by rm1369

I’m a vet and I can tell you military status has very little to do with your view on kneeling. In fact a poll on VA.org shows 49% to 45% don’t view kneeling as disrespectful. As I’ve pointed out, the cross over between those who think kneeling is disrespectful, those who think removing confederate statues is wrong (people who killed US soldiers), and those supporting anti-CRT legislation is very, very high. That same group also largely supported a president who started making a name for himself by using race and you can clearly see it with their current politicians doing just what Atwater said. So it’s not about race, but coincidentally they keep consistently coming out on the side that racists do.

And you know what else isn’t really that long ago? The civil rights movement, Jim Crow, and lynchings. But that same group pretends that’s ancient history, so spare me on WWII - where African Americans were sent to die and then denied GI Bills their white counterparts received. If you care about the flag but not the people it represents you aren’t a fucking patriot. Doesn’t make anyone racist, just indifferent and selfish.

So a majority of the armed forces views the kneeling as disrespectful. That’s what I said, I believe.

You can make the jump all you want that racism is mainly to blame, but that’s your opinion. Reality says differently. The poll you cited says differently.

Also, you can stop bringing up Trump. I hated that jackass, but he has nothing to do with what we’re discussing, except for your desire to connect him and his supporters with racism.

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Hoopsdoc

So a majority of the armed forces views the kneeling as disrespectful. That’s what I said, I believe.

You can make the jump all you want that racism is mainly to blame, but that’s your opinion. Reality says differently. The poll you cited says differently.

Also, you can stop bringing up Trump. I hated that jackass, but he has nothing to do with what we’re discussing, except for your desire to connect him and his supporters with racism.

No 49% don’t view it as disrespectful, 45% do. So most don’t have a problem with kneeling. Although it’s close. The point being, military membership actually tells you very little about a persons stance on the issue. You are wrong. Your political leanings are a much better indicator.

Reality says that beating a woman or fondling one is less of an issue than being the face of racial protests - the point of the article. Don’t bring of Watson or Hill, research some of the lesser known guys who still get chances. Reality says that if Kap had never knelt he would have still played in the NFL. Of course reality says all kinds of things about race in this country that the anti-kneeling crowd don’t want to address. Or they want to address as a one off individual issue - disconnected from all others. Atwater’s quote is the exact method of the current Republican Party. You can be ignorant and think Republican politicians just always come down on the same side of issues as racists if you want. As I said, doesn’t make you racist. Just willfully ignorant or selfish, IMO. You didn’t like a trump? Great. But again, being a trump supporter is an absolutely great indicator of where someone falls on this issue. Try to compartmentalize it all you want, but there is pretty big trend there. I’m not surprised some want to ignore it.

[Hoopsdoc]

Originally Posted by rm1369

No 49% don’t view it as disrespectful, 45% do. So most don’t have a problem with kneeling. Although it’s close. The point being, military membership actually tells you very little about a persons stance on the issue. You are wrong. Your political leanings are a much better indicator.

Reality says that beating a woman or fondling one is less of an issue than being the face of racial protests - the point of the article. Don’t bring of Watson or Hill, research some of the lesser known guys who still get chances. Reality says that if Kap had never knelt he would have still played in the NFL. Of course reality says all kinds of things about race in this country that the anti-kneeling crowd don’t want to address. Or they want to address as a one off individual issue - disconnected from all others. Atwater’s quote is the exact method of the current Republican Party. You can be ignorant and think Republican politicians just always come down on the same side of issues as racists if you want. As I said, doesn’t make you racist. Just willfully ignorant or selfish, IMO. You didn’t like a trump? Great. But again, being a trump supporter is an absolutely great indicator of where someone falls on this issue. Try to compartmentalize it all you want, but there is pretty big trend there. I’m not surprised some want to ignore it.

We went through why players tend to get second chances already in this thread. It has more to do with how talented you are than anything. That’s reality, regardless of your opinion.

And again, the league went out of their way to set up a second chance for Kap and he blew it off. Why won’t you address that?

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Hoopsdoc

We went through why players tend to get second chances already in this thread. It has more to do with how talented you are than anything. That’s reality, regardless of your opinion.

And again, the league went out of their way to set up a second chance for Kap and he blew it off. Why won’t you address that?

Could Kap have overcome it by being a top 5 QB in the league? Of course! No one is arguing he wouldn’t have. The point is how big the black mark was for his kneeling. It is absolutely bigger than what other players have faced for domestic violence. There is no logical argument that Kap was not good enough to play. None. The NFL settlement (before discovery I believe) certainly appears to show the NFL knew they couldn’t defend it based on performance of Kap simply wanting too much money.

People bring up Kap opting out of his contract but he was told he didn’t fit Shanahans offense and waould be released. So he opted out. He then went unsigned with at least as good a pedigree as the now twice traded Wentz. The 2nd chance was setup by then NFL (pretty unusual right) after he had settled with them for black balling him. One of the major sticking points was that the workout wasn’t public and it was also on a Saturday- a pretty weird day in the NFL schedule for such an event. My guess is he thought it was all bullshit and was private so the NFL could say he sucked and no one could counter it. I’d bet there was very little trust there. Should he have went through with it? I have no idea, but the whole circumstance from the settlement to the special workout on a Saturday in season tells me it wasn’t a typical situation. Not to mention this is now 3 years after being out of the league, so what is the defense for the years prior to the very, very strange workout?

[Spike]

Originally Posted by rm1369

Could Kap have overcome it by being a top 5 QB in the league? Of course! No one is arguing he wouldn’t have. The point is how big the black mark was for his kneeling. It is absolutely bigger than what other players have faced for domestic violence. There is no logical argument that Kap was not good enough to play. None. The NFL settlement (before discovery I believe) certainly appears to show the NFL knew they couldn’t defend it based on performance of Kap simply wanting too much money.

People bring up Kap opting out of his contract but he was told he didn’t fit Shanahans offense and waould be released. So he opted out. He then went unsigned with at least as good a pedigree as the now twice traded Wentz. The 2nd chance was setup by then NFL (pretty unusual right) after he had settled with them for black balling him. One of the major sticking points was that the workout wasn’t public and it was also on a Saturday- a pretty weird day in the NFL schedule for such an event. My guess is he thought it was all bullshit and was private so the NFL could say he sucked and no one could counter it. I’d bet there was very little trust there. Should he have went through with it? I have no idea, but the whole circumstance from the settlement to the special workout on a Saturday in season tells me it wasn’t a typical situation. Not to mention this is now 3 years after being out of the league, so what is the defense for the years prior to the very, very strange workout?

Again with the excuses. Big fucking deal that it was on a Saturday, what the hell difference does that make. You want to be back in the NFL, show the fuck up. Bitch about how unfair it was later, at least you might have an argument there.

[Hoopsdoc]

Originally Posted by rm1369

Could Kap have overcome it by being a top 5 QB in the league? Of course! No one is arguing he wouldn’t have. The point is how big the black mark was for his kneeling. It is absolutely bigger than what other players have faced for domestic violence. There is no logical argument that Kap was not good enough to play. None. The NFL settlement (before discovery I believe) certainly appears to show the NFL knew they couldn’t defend it based on performance of Kap simply wanting too much money.

People bring up Kap opting out of his contract but he was told he didn’t fit Shanahans offense and waould be released. So he opted out. He then went unsigned with at least as good a pedigree as the now twice traded Wentz. The 2nd chance was setup by then NFL (pretty unusual right) after he had settled with them for black balling him. One of the major sticking points was that the workout wasn’t public and it was also on a Saturday- a pretty weird day in the NFL schedule for such an event. My guess is he thought it was all bullshit and was private so the NFL could say he sucked and no one could counter it. I’d bet there was very little trust there. Should he have went through with it? I have no idea, but the whole circumstance from the settlement to the special workout on a Saturday in season tells me it wasn’t a typical situation. Not to mention this is now 3 years after being out of the league, so what is the defense for the years prior to the very, very strange workout?

What a bunch of horseshit. That reads like a bunch of half assed excuses. An opportunity was created SPECIFICALLY FOR HIM and he blew it off.

And he didn’t raise any objections right away, which he should have done. He waited until the DAY OF THE ACTUAL WORKOUT to complain and make demands.

Those aren’t the actions of someone who is genuine with their intentions, no matter how you try to paint them.

[Hoopsdoc]

Originally Posted by rm1369

I’m a vet and I can tell you military status has very little to do with your view on kneeling. In fact a poll on VA.org shows 49% to 45% don’t view kneeling as disrespectful. As I’ve pointed out, the cross over between those who think kneeling is disrespectful, those who think removing confederate statues is wrong (people who killed US soldiers), and those supporting anti-CRT legislation is very, very high. That same group also largely supported a president who started making a name for himself by using race and you can clearly see it with their current politicians doing just what Atwater said. So it’s not about race, but coincidentally they keep consistently coming out on the side that racists do.

And you know what else isn’t really that long ago? The civil rights movement, Jim Crow, and lynchings. But that same group pretends that’s ancient history, so spare me on WWII - where African Americans were sent to die and then denied GI Bills their white counterparts received. If you care about the flag but not the people it represents you aren’t a fucking patriot. Doesn’t make anyone racist, just indifferent and selfish.

Also, CRT is Marxist inspired horseshit that has no business being taught in our schools, except maybe colleges.

CRT has very little to do with history. It, by its own definition, seeks to examine the societal and institutional dynamics that created what THEY view as a fundamentally and irredeemably racist society.

I don’t think this country is fundamentally and irredeemably racist and I sure as hell don’t want to teach our kids that.

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Hoopsdoc

Also, CRT is Marxist inspired horseshit that has no business being taught in our schools, except maybe colleges.

CRT has very little to do with history. It, by its own definition, seeks to examine the societal and institutional dynamics that created what THEY view as a fundamentally and irredeemably racist society.

I don’t think this country is fundamentally and irredeemably racist and I sure as hell don’t want to teach our kids that.

CRT is a college level theory looking at how race and our institutions are intertwined. Your description sounds like it’s right off FOX News. Not surprisingly the Republican Party has their followers believing it is regularly taught in grade schools. It’s racist propaganda horseshit. Again, Atwater 100%. Not surprisingly the same group that cried we were “erasing history” by removing statues (of people who fought against our ohh so precious flag to maintain slavery) are now whitewashing history.

I’m sure you don’t want your kids taught that slavery was enshrined in the constitution or the reasons for the 3/5ths compromise, about the trail of tears, black Wall Street or the Tulsa riots. You want to pretend race isn’t a historical issue? While lecturing me on not how long ago WWII is? We wouldn’t want to make white kids uncomfortable would we? But black kids should suck it up when their community CELEBRATES a traitorous confederate soldier who fought to keep them enslaved. I’m sure race doesn’t enter into that logic, does it?