4th and 8 was my 62-7 moment for the Ballard/Steichen regime.

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by Oldcolt

This is a fun argument you guys are having. My own opinion is that there is no one QB who historically just stands head and shoulders above everyone else. Everyone thinks the greatest of all time was a player they watched, 40 years from now neither Brady or Maning will be the GOAT for those fans, it will be somebody not even born yet. Having said that Brady and Manning played in the same era and in my opinion Manning was way better than Brady at their peak. l Without Manning the Colts were mediocre, without Brady the Patriots were still contenders.

o


Bill Bellichick's best season as a coach was 2008 ...... when the Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Casssell at quarterback when Tom Brady missed the entire season with a knee injury.

Since 1978 when the 16-game schedule was implemented, only 2 teams did not make the playoffs with a final record of 11-5 ...... the 1985 Denver Broncos, and the 2008 New England Patriots.

The only reason why the 2008 Patriots did not make the playoffs that year was because the AFC was stacked that season. It was the antithesis of when Peyton Manning missed the entire 2011 season with an injury, and the Colts wound up going 2-14. The 2020 Colts with Philip Rivers at QB were in the same exact position as were those 2008 Patriots (an 11-5 record), but were fortunate that a #7 seed was added to the NFL post-season tournament for the first time ever.


On the other hand, it was clear that Peyton Manning was almost singlehandedly keeping the Colts together in 2010 when they went 10-6 to win the AFC South title that season ...... when Manning missed the entire 2011 season the Colts started out at 0-13, and finished at 2-14.

But ....... but ...... but ...... but what if Matt Cassel had been the Colts' quarterback that season instead of Curtis Painter or Dan Orlovsky ???

Maybe ....... maybe those 2011 Colts would have gone 4-12 instead of 2-14 if an average QB like Matt Cassell had been taking snaps behind the center instead of Curtis Painter and/or Dan Orlovsky.




FINAL NOTE: l After going 11-5 with Matt Cassell at quarterback in 2008, the 2009 Patriots got a prime Tom Brady back the next season ...... and they went 10-6. Not only did the 2009 Patriots make the playoffs, but they won their division title. In their first playoff game, on their homefield eastern Massachusetts, they were crushed by the Baltimore Ravens by a score of 33-14.




The 2008 Patriots Will Forever be Bill Belichick’s True Masterpiece

(By Michael Self)

http://draftamerica.com/the-2008-pat...e-masterpiece/


o

[ChaosTheory]

Originally Posted by albany ed

I wouldn't say he kills him, Here are some per game stats

Manning 270 ypg. 2 TD per game
Brady 266 ypg 1.9 TD per game

We should contextualize these numbers for post-2011. People conflate the effect of 2011, 2004, and 1994 changes... but '94 and '04 were more blips that regressed whereas 2011 ushered in the inflationary passing era.

Brady played roughly 57% of his 23 seasons post-2011. 8 of his 10 best seasons are post-2011 when he was older Brady. Same for Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Eli, etc. 70-80% of their best seasons are post-2011.

Manning pretty much only got three seasons of happy hour and he set the record for 3-year and single-season touchdowns while not being able to feel his fingers.

Coincidence? Did he magically get better when he was old and broken? Extrapolate that ecosystem for another 69 games and Manning's totals crush.

It's similar to how people act like Marvin vs. TO is a slam-dunk for Owens because the easiest metric to look at is career totals... but if you do a real-time side-by-side of metrics, Marvin doesn't just outperform TO—it's actually kind of a slaughter.

Like Dam said... a lot of the MJ-Lebron debate devolves solely into rings vs. counting stats which is dumb. There is a cumulative framework to look at which gives a clearer answer.

Manning was first-team All-Pro 7x and aside from 2008 when Brady was hurt, they all came head-to-head with Brady. The further we get away from real-time of those seasons, the more the argument becomes rings and counting stats.

[albany ed]

I only brought in the numbers because of the accusation that Bradys' 23 seasons skewed his numbers against Mannings' 17. Perhaps the best way to gauge this is to rely on the rankings of the experts. Most Pats fans will choose Brady as the GOAT whereas most Colts fans will choose Manning as the GOAT. Most neutral fans and most experts will choose Brady. It's interesting that Jeff Saturday chose Brady as the GOAT. Of course, his football knowledge cannot compare to the fans on this board.

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by ChaosTheory

We should contextualize these numbers for post-2011. People conflate the effect of 2011, 2004, and 1994 changes... but '94 and '04 were more blips that regressed whereas 2011 ushered in the inflationary passing era.

Brady played roughly 57% of his 23 seasons post-2011. 8 of his 10 best seasons are post-2011 when he was older Brady. Same for Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Eli, etc. 70-80% of their best seasons are post-2011.

Manning pretty much only got three seasons of happy hour and he set the record for 3-year and single-season touchdowns while not being able to feel his fingers.

Coincidence ??? Did he magically get better when he was old and broken ??? Extrapolate that eco-system for another 69 games and Manning's totals crush.

It's similar to how people act like Marvin vs. TO is a slam-dunk for Owens because the easiest metric to look at is career totals... but if you do a real-time side-by-side of metrics, Marvin doesn't just outperform TO—it's actually kind of a slaughter.

Like Dam said... a lot of the MJ-Lebron debate devolves solely into rings vs. counting stats which is dumb. There is a cumulative framework to look at which gives a clearer answer.

Manning was first-team All-Pro 7x and aside from 2008 when Brady was hurt, they all came head-to-head with Brady. The further we get away from real-time of those seasons, the more the argument becomes rings and counting stats.

o


Here is some more historical context regarding quarterbacks dealing with the rules of the game for the time in which they played, when comparing quarterbacks from the 1940's through the Present ...... which is why the statistics of quarterbacks such as Sonny Jurgensen, Y.A. Tittle, Sammy, Baugh, and Sid Luckman would look pedestrian or even bad in today's game.



A) lPrior to 1974, a defensive player could hit a receiver an unlimited number of times down-field, so long as the ball was not in the air.

Starting in 1974, the most severe rule change regarding pass receivers and defenders was enacted ...... a player could only make contact 2 times overall, and one time beyond 3 yards of the line of scrimmage. This makes one appreciate what Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr, Sonny Jurgensen, etc. accomplished. These quarterbacks all had most or all of their careers played prior to the 1974 season.

B) lIn 1977, the rule was amended to aid the pass receivers again. Starting that season, a defender could only make contact with a receiver one time ...... whether it be within 3 yards of the line of scrimmage, or further downfield.

C) lIn 1978, the rule was amended to aid the pass receivers yet again. Starting that season, a defender could make contact with a receiver only one time, and within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. If the defender made contact with a receiver 6 yards or more from the line of scrimmage, it was now considered to be pass interference (and/or defensive holding), even if the ball was not yet in the air.



* l In the last 15-20 years (circa 2005 through the present), more rule changes protecting both the receivers and the quarterbacks has allowed offensive statistics to increase even higher than they already had been.

o

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by albany ed

I only brought in the numbers because of the accusation that Bradys' 23 seasons skewed his numbers against Mannings' 17. Perhaps the best way to gauge this is to rely on the rankings of the experts. Most Pats fans will choose Brady as the GOAT whereas most Colts fans will choose Manning as the GOAT. Most neutral fans and most experts will choose Brady. l It's interesting that Jeff Saturday chose Brady as the GOAT. Of course, his football knowledge cannot compare to the fans on this board.

o


John Lennon was part of what was arguably the best and most influential rock band of all-time.

John Lennon thought that he had a terrible voice, and often double-tracked his vocals because he was embarrassed by his own singing ........ and Lennon that that Yoko Ono had a great voice.


Some of the greatest players in the history of sports were terrible coaches, terrible managers, and terrible GM's.

Being an all-time great at your profession does not necessarily make you an expert and/or intimately knowledgeable about the profession that you excelled in.

o

[albany ed]

Originally Posted by Colts And Orioles

o


John Lennon was part of what was arguably the best and most influential rock band of all-time.

John Lennon thought that he had a terrible voice, and often double-tracked his vocals because he was embarrassed by his own singing ........ and Lennon that that Yoko Ono had a great voice.


Some of the greatest players in the history of sports were terrible coaches, terrible managers, and terrible GM's.

Being an all-time great at your profession does not necessarily make you an expert and/or intimately knowledgeable about the profession that you excelled in.

o

And being fans of a player definitely qualify you as an expert? Come on man, most experts to a man rate Brady as the GOAT, but this message board with its UNBIASED opinion is the only place that has it correct.

[Oldcolt]

Nobody is unbiased, that include you and me Albany. I completely disagree with your way of deciding, by taking and dividing their career into playoff and nonplayoff. Shit Bradys first two super bowl wins-which i assume you would put in the column that says Brady was GOAT-ocured in years Manning was MVP. Brady never won the Super Bowl the years he won MVP. Being the best QB in the game doesn't come close to guaranteeing post season success, it does guarantee you will be in the hunt for the post season. Having the best team is what counts in post season. Manning was able to cover for a ton of holes the colts had in regular season. In post season, when you are playing motivated teams with better talent, he couldn't pull it off as easily. Nobody can.

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by albany ed

And being fans of a player definitely qualify you as an expert?

o


I didn't say that......YOU were the one who pointed out that Jeff Saturday's opinion carried weight, which is not necessarily credible simply based on the fact that he is a Hall-of-Fame center. .

Regarding the analysis of the fans here on Colt Freaks, several of them (including myself) have parsed and disassembled your assertion that Tom Brady was necessarily the best quarterback of all-time. Your argument is ''Tom Brady is the GOAT because I said so, Jeff Saturday said so, and most experts say so.''

You can stand by the generic claim that Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback back of all-time. I, like several other posters here, choose to believe more objective, detailed, and thorough analysis.

o

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by Oldcolt

Nobody is unbiased albany ed, including you and me.

o


And me ...... I am not unbiased ...... which is why I lean towards the argument that Dan Marino may have been a better quarterback than Peyton Manning.

I'm a Colts fan, and as impressed as I am with Peyton Manning being the biggest freak-of-nature in regard to reading defenses and audibling in and out of plays at the line-of-scrimmage, I cannot dispute that I favor him emotionally because of the unform that he wore for most of his career.

o

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by Oldcolt

Being the best QB in the game doesn't come close to guaranteeing post season success, it does guarantee you will be in the hunt for the post-seasonalmost every year.

o


Dan Marino's teams made it to 1 Super Bowl in his entire career, and they got blown off of the field by the 49ers.

Terry Bradshaw's teams made it to 4 Super Bowls, and they won all 4 of them ...... and Bradshaw was the MVP in 2 of those 4 Super Bowl wins.

Dan Marino was a better quarterback ...... considerably better.....than Terry Bradshaw.

Fran Tarkenton and Jim Kelly were also better quarterbacks than Terry Bradshaw.

o