Black Sox and Landis Discussion

[IndyNorm]

Starting up a separate thread in the more appropriate location.

This is what make Landis a complete phony, hypocrite, and why he deserves no credit for allegedly "cleaning up baseball."

With the Black Sox, Landis made it abundantly clear, with no wiggle room whatsoever, not even for Buck Weaver and Joe Jackson who both played to the best of their abilities, that any type of fixing and/or gambling would not be tolerated, and that they would never play professional baseball ever again.

But when he had hard evidence of other games being fixed (and gambled on), and with Ty Cobb asserting that if he went down he would tell all and bring many others down with him, Landis conveniently acted like a big pussy, and ignored it ........ Therefore, Landis DID NOT clean up baseball ...... he carefully and expediently cherry-picked which scandal (and which players) that he would come down hard on, and when an even bigger mess was put on his desk, he ignored it ....... that was nothing short of cowardly and disingenuous, and it absolutely drives home the point that I have been making about him all along. If Ty Cobb had hard evidence of 30 or 40 other players fixing games, and if Landis TRULY wanted to clean up the game and give it credibility, then Landis would have and should have dealt with each and every one of those players and banned them all for life, just like he did with the Black Sox ........ but he didn't do that, therefore her was a complete hypocrite, therefore he did not "clean up" baseball, and he deserves no credit other than coming along after the fact and conveniently dealing with only what he chose to deal with.

You obviously make a really good argument, but I disagree that he cherry picked. Throwing the World Series is exponentially worse than fixing a meaningless late season game when the pennants have already been determined. I'd say it's worse than fixing 1,000 meaningless games.

The trial was a sham.

3 signed confessions were mysteriously lost.

2 of the confessions were legitimate (Cicotte and Williams) while the 3rd "confession" was not (Joe Jackson) ...... Jackson could not read and write, and was coerced into signing the confession with an X mark. Jackson's "confession" was completely written out for him in advance.

Have you read this book? It looks pretty interesting.

https://www.fox32chicago.com/sports/...ck-sox-scandal

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

You obviously make a really good argument, but I disagree that he cherry picked. Throwing the World Series is exponentially worse than fixing a meaningless late season game when the pennants have already been determined. I'd say it's worse than fixing 1,000 meaningless games.




Have you read this book? It looks pretty interesting.

https://www.fox32chicago.com/sports/...ck-sox-scandal

o


This is the last that I'm going to say on the matter.


Landis did cherry-pick what to deal with, and his own words are proof that he did. Landis made a speech in his own words ......


"Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ballgame, no player that undertakes or promises to throw a ballgame, no player that sits in conference with a bunch of crooked players and gamblers where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."


He didn't say, ) "Well, if it's a meaningless regular season game, then I'll let it slide, but if it's the World Series, I'm putting my foot down. ...... he said what he said, plain and simple, and there was no misunderstanding what he said.


In other words, Landis set the precedent himself, and then he reneged on his own precedent.

o

[IndyNorm]

Originally Posted by Colts And Orioles

o


This is the last that I'm going to say on the matter, partly because you're pissing me off, and partly because you are flat-out wrong.


HE DID cherry-pick what to deal with, his own words are PROOF that he did. Landis made a speech IN HIS OWN WORDS. He SPECIFICALLY SAID the following ......



"Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ballgame, no player that undertakes or promises to throw a ballgame, no player that sits in conference with a bunch of crooked players and gamblers where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."


He didn't say, ) "Well, if it's a meaningless regular season game, then I'll let it slide, but if it's the World Series, I'm putting my foot down. ...... he said what he said, plain and simple, and there was no misunderstanding what he said. It was as plain as day.



Those were HIS EXACT WORDS, and he meant what he said, and he said what he meant ...... until something came along that he didn't feel like dealing with because he was a big pussy. He was a liar, a coward, a hypocrite, and he did nothing to clean up baseball. You can claim whatever you want to claim, I have the facts on my side.

o

Damn dude. Didn't mean to offend. Thought we were having a fun debate over this.

I am curious though to get your thoughts on the book that's the subject of the article I linked.

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

Damn dude. Didn't mean to offend. Thought we were having a fun debate over this.

I am curious though to get your thoughts on the book that's the subject of the article I linked.

o


I apologize for the outburst ...... I'll edit my post to temper it down some.

I was having fun initially, then I wasn't having fun after about my 4th or 5th post on the matter.


Regarding the book, there is nothing new on the matter that can be concretely proven since about 1994, maybe even earlier than that. And even if some "new" information does arise, it will be met with as many questions as it does answers in regard to said information ...... it's like people arguing/debating how many shooters there were in the Kennedy assassination in 1963 and/or whether or not Oswald pulled the trigger ...... there are some things that none of us will ever know, and the fixing of the 1919 World Series is one of those things ....... I claim to be a Black Sox expert, and I know a lot about what happened, but believe it or not there is actually more that I DON'T know than I DO know.

o

[IndyNorm]

Originally Posted by Colts And Orioles

o


I apologize for the outburst ...... I'll edit my post to temper it down some.

I was having fun initially, then I wasn't having fun after about my 4th or 5th post on the matter.


Regarding the book, there is nothing new on the matter that can be concretely proven since about 1994, maybe even earlier than that. And even if some "new" information does arise, it will be met with as many questions as it does answers in regard to said information ...... it's like people arguing/debating how many shooters there were in the Kennedy assassination in 1963 and/or whether or not Oswald pulled the trigger ...... there are some things that none of us will ever know, and the fixing of the 1919 World Series is one of those things ....... I claim to be a Black Sox expert, and I know a lot about what happened, but believe it or not there is actually more that I DON'T know than I DO know.

o

No worries and no need to edit your post. And my bad for being stubborn on my stance. FWIW - I learned a lot from your posts on the subject and it piqued my interest enough to do some google searches and read some articles.

The book is actually about the civil trial where Shoeless Joe sued Charles Comiskey a couple of years after the Black Sox trial. I didn't know that this took place; guessing you did though. Anyway, based on the article the book is from recently found transcripts of the civil trial, so thought it would interest you.

[Oldcolt]

C&O. When I was a kid I read everything I could about the era. Autobiographies, etc. Haven't read much in the past 30-40 years. Could you point me toward some more recent books that you would recommend about the era and what book do you like the most about the black sock scandal? Thanks in advance

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by Oldcolt

C&O, when I was a kid I read everything I could about the era. Autobiographies, etc. Haven't read much in the past 30-40 years. Could you point me toward some more recent books that you would recommend about the era and what book do you like the most about the black sock scandal ??? Thanks in advance.

o


This book was originally written in 1978, and it was updated in 1989 ...... of all of the books that I have read on the matter, this was the most poignant and the most interesting.






o

[Colts And Orioles]

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

No worries and no need to edit your post. And my bad for being stubborn on my stance. FWIW - I learned a lot from your posts on the subject and it piqued my interest enough to do some google searches and read some articles.

The book is actually about the civil trial where Shoeless Joe sued Charles Comiskey a couple of years after the Black Sox trial. I didn't know that this took place; guessing you did though. Anyway, based on the article the book is from recently found transcripts of the civil trial, so thought it would interest you.

o


I know about the civil trial in 1924, in which Shoeless Joe Jackson successfully sued Charles Comiskey and the White Sox ...... he was awarded $17,000 in damages by the jury.

The likely reason why that lawsuit was downplayed and not widely-known is because it didn't fit the sexy, traditional narrative of Jackson and all of his teammates necessarily being crooked and of Landis subsequently "cleaning up baseball" by banning all 8 players, including Buck Weaver and Shoeless Joe ...... if anything, the jury's judgment in his favor would lend credibility to the notion that Jackson played to the best of his abilities, and that he took steps to distance himself from the fix (including telling Manager Kid Gleason that he wasn't going to play in the series at all, until Gleason coerced him into it.)


In the trial, it was revealed that not only did Jackson not ask for the $5,000 that was given to him by his teammate Lefty Williams, but that he actually went to Charles Comiskey's office to try to give the money back in order to distance himself from the notion that he threw the games ...... before he got a chance to talk to Comiskey and give the money to him, he was intercepted by Comiskey's weasel secretary, Harry Grabiner. Grabiner told the illiterate and naive Jackson that "We know what you want. We don't want you here." Jackson then asked Grabiner what he should do with the crooked money. Grabiner replied, "Why, you should keep it."


All of this revealed that team owner Charlie Comiskey knew about the fix since the end of the second game of the World Series, and allowed all of the 8 accused players to continue to play not only for the remaining games of the series, but also for an entire additional season in 1920 ...... Comiskey didn't suspend the 8 players until late September of 1920, when the story broke and hit the newspapers nationwide ...... Kenesaw Landis, who was not stupid, was well aware of all of these happenings when he banned the 8 players for life, but he (once again) conveniently decided to ignore the fact that Charles Comiskey was complicit in covering up the fix after the fact. If Landis was truly cleaning up the game as he claimed that he was, he would have banned Charles Comiskey from baseball for life also (and yes, Landis DID have the authority to do that, because he insisted on getting a lifetime contract by the owners AND that he have ABSOLUTE POWER ...... Landis said that he would not take the job unless he had both of those contingencies.) To this day, Landis remains the only commissioner in the history of MLB to have BOTH absolute power AND a lifetime contract.

So, as Old Colt alluded in the thread on the main board, if this all sounds like a typical example of American capitalist, life isn't fair, the wealthy control the narrative while the working-class gets pissed on while doing all of the work status quo, then there is a good reason for it, because it is.

o