I'm officially on the Stroud bandwagon

[apballin]

Hurts has played good but I don’t consider him elite, plays well in the system and Eagles built a hell of a team because they have a QB on a rookie deal. Eagles are talented at every level and suffered no real injuries. He reminds me of Cam Newton.. while nearly unstoppable and very close to being a superbowl champion his game wasn’t sustainable and he flamed out very quickly. Once the Eagles have to pay Hurts and his team isn’t stacked with talent we’ll see how good he really is

[IndyNorm]

Chase and Higgins were both largely developed by Joe Burrow. Sure, Boyd was there, but like you said, Chase and Higgins are better.

Holy shit. You actually think Chase and Higgins owe everything to Burrow and wouldn't be good WRs if they were playing elsewhere. You really are a special kind of fucking stupid aren't you?

Sure, that's one way to look at it. Nice try at spinning it into a positive for Lawrence, by the way.

I look at it as these are the exact same things he's had "room to improve" on since he burst onto the scene by beating Alabama as a freshman at Clemson. He has shown literally zero improvement on those things in the intervening five years. Why would it suddenly happen in his third year in the NFL?

By the way, if he ever does show that improvement, I will admit I was wrong. I was wrong about Herbert coming out, he didn't look like nearly as accurate of a QB as what he has become.

The dude threw for 66%, 4,100 yards, and 25/8 in his 2nd year. He had a very good year. Face it, you're wrong. Just admit it.

Is there a reason I shouldn't blame the Jets? They're the ones who threw him into the fire when he needed a year to develop. Does he not have the best public face? Sure, neither does Aaron Rodgers. If Mahomes didn't sit behind Smith his first year, do you think he'd be who he is today?

Do you honestly think Wilson has no responsibility at all in being a bust?

What does Hurts's rushing have to do with Justin Fields? Again, never said Hurts was a bad QB, just not elite (top 5 in NFL) or MVP level (top 3 in NFL) going forward. Again, I'd go league average. Justin Fields is someone I could see surpassing Hurts in the next 2-3 years.

You seem to think Fields is a complete stud and franchise QB while Hurts isn't. That's what Hurts rushing yards have to do with it. I can't figure out why you think this way other than you're a fan of Fields and not Hurts.

The only person on the planet who would've drafted Michael Jordan over Hakeem Olajuwon would've looked pretty smart in hindsight.

So would the only guy on the planet who would've drafted Russell Wilson over RGIII, which I'm fairly certain was me.

Holy shit Justin Fields is fucking Michael Jordan now! LMAO!!!!!!

BTW: I doubt the Rockets are too upset over drafting Olajuwon since he's in the HOF and they did win multiple championships under him.



10 QBs that will be better than Hurts in 2023? Let's do this in tiers.

My comments bolded below.

Definitely
Patrick Mahomes
Joe Burrow
Josh Allen
Justin Herbert

Can't disagree with any of these. Maybe Herbert, but I'd probably put money on him over Hurts.

Maybe
Lamar Jackson - He's a possibility, but I doubt it. His play has declined and he'll probably still be all butt hurt about not being offered Watson money.

DeShaun Watson - Again it's possible, but I doubt it. He was awful when he came back, and it's the Browns.

Tua Tagovailoa - Hard no on Tua. He will likely not hold up through the season and really needs to hang it up since he's had like 5 concussions already.

Brock Purdy - Again a hard no. He was a nice story, but he might not even start for the 49ers next season.

Matthew Stafford - Possible, but risky. His play declined and he's coming off of a neck injury.

Kyler Murray - Hard no. His play has significantly regressed and he's become a head case (interesting that you're now saying he's a top 10 QB after saying he was junk in an earlier post).

Dak Prescott - Possible. I'd bet on Hurts, but Dak is certainly capable.

Daniel Jones - You're fucking joking right?

Aaron Rodgers - Possible but risky. Father time seems to be catching up with him, and he's become disgruntled.

Jared Goff - Hard no.

That's not counting Fields - Hard no, Stroud - No, he'll be a rookie on a bad team, or Young - No. Rookie on a bad team, and he probably won't be able to hold up through the season, all of whom I could see surpassing him within 2 years, or guys like Russell Wilson - Possible, but something seems really wrong with him or Derek Carr - No. His best days are long behind him, who looked much worse this year, but are bounceback candidates based on regression to the mean alone.

[IndyNorm]

Originally Posted by ChaosTheory

I've lost track of this pissing contest, but here's my take: (just fucking with Norm)

[Dam8610]

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

Holy shit. You actually think Chase and Higgins owe everything to Burrow and wouldn't be good WRs if they were playing elsewhere. You really are a special kind of fucking stupid aren't you?

No, Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne don't owe everything to Peyton Manning, either. But neither of them would've ascended to the heights they did without him. Ja'Marr Chase would've been dominant anywhere he went, but I do think he's better because he's with Burrow.

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

The dude threw for 66%, 4,100 yards, and 25/8 in his 2nd year. He had a very good year. Face it, you're wrong. Just admit it.

He had a bad first half and a fluke second half of the season, the Dallas game being a perfect example of that. He still can't read a defense or make an anticipation throw. You can pump a completion percentage up by doing a lot of screens, quick reads, and short pick plays, all things that Lawrence has never struggled with. But if he can't make a defense pay for the coverage they choose because he can't decipher it and make the correct read, defenses will just force him to stay in the pocket and beat them with his arm, which he won't be able to. I still see no evidence that Trevor Lawrence can operate within the structure of the offense when that structure requires him to make a full field read and throw the ball with anticipation.

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

Do you honestly think Wilson has no responsibility at all in being a bust?

I don't know that I'd call him a bust yet, certainly a disappointment to this point. I know he needs to get out of the Jets organization in all likelihood to succeed at this point. Are his disappointing results on him on some level? They have to be, he's the one creating the results. I don't think the Jets have done his development any favors along the way, though, and he would be looked at even worse than he is now if he pulled a Russell Wilson and hired his own coaching staff.

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

You seem to think Fields is a complete stud and franchise QB while Hurts isn't. That's what Hurts rushing yards have to do with it. I can't figure out why you think this way other than you're a fan of Fields and not Hurts.

I'm not necessarily a fan of Fields or not a fan of Hurts. You asked different things about both of them. I don't think Hurts has the ability to be in the Top 5 of QBs in the NFL long term, and he'd have a hard time maintaining a top 10 spot. I think Fields could get there at some point, but honestly it would involve putting a better supporting cast around him and having him try to do his best Lamar Jackson imitation less.

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

Holy shit Justin Fields is fucking Michael Jordan now! LMAO!!!!!!

Lol don't Bears fans wish? It was an allegory to illustrate that just because a take is unpopular at the time doesn't mean it's wrong. And the closest thing the NFL has had to Michael Jordan is Peyton Manning.

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

BTW: I doubt the Rockets are too upset over drafting Olajuwon since he's in the HOF and they did win multiple championships under him.

This is missing the point (see above), but I'm pretty sure they would've been happier with six championships rather than two.

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

10 QBs that will be better than Hurts in 2023? Let's do this in tiers.

My comments bolded below.

For the most part, I'm just going to agree to disagree here on the ones you disagreed on. I only have 2 points in response:

1) I never said Murray was a Top 10 QB or junk. I will say he probably hasn't lived up to the lofty expectations of a #1 overall pick, evidenced by the fact that the Cardinals were hesitant to extend him. But there was also a reason that they finally did give him a 5 year, $230.5 million extension. He's a player who has been in MVP discussions in the past. It's not out of the realm of possibility for him to return to that form.

2) Interestingly enough, it was our board's own Lawrence Owen that convinced me that Daniel Jones was a possibility. Jones also started using his legs more this year, but more importantly continued his longstanding trend of getting better at protecting the football. He also had a very poor supporting cast outside of Saquon Barkley last season. If he got some better weapons and continued to take care of the ball well, a 4,500 total yard, 35 total TD season wouldn't be out of the question, and that would likely be better than Hurts, considering that was basically 2022 Hurts's stat line and I am anticipating regression from that.

[IndyNorm]

No, Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne don't owe everything to Peyton Manning, either. But neither of them would've ascended to the heights they did without him. Ja'Marr Chase would've been dominant anywhere he went, but I do think he's better because he's with Burrow.

Glad you're starting to come back to Earth and make some sense.

He had a bad first half and a fluke second half of the season, the Dallas game being a perfect example of that. He still can't read a defense or make an anticipation throw. You can pump a completion percentage up by doing a lot of screens, quick reads, and short pick plays, all things that Lawrence has never struggled with. But if he can't make a defense pay for the coverage they choose because he can't decipher it and make the correct read, defenses will just force him to stay in the pocket and beat them with his arm, which he won't be able to. I still see no evidence that Trevor Lawrence can operate within the structure of the offense when that structure requires him to make a full field read and throw the ball with anticipation.

His bad first half I'm sure had a lot to do w/ the hangover from the Urban Meyer dumpster fire of '21. Then once he got comfortable w/ Pederson's system and regained his confidence he took off. And I'm sorry, but you just can't luck your way into the type of production he put up this past year.

I don't know that I'd call him a bust yet, certainly a disappointment to this point. I know he needs to get out of the Jets organization in all likelihood to succeed at this point. Are his disappointing results on him on some level? They have to be, he's the one creating the results. I don't think the Jets have done his development any favors along the way, though, and he would be looked at even worse than he is now if he pulled a Russell Wilson and hired his own coaching staff.

As it stands now he's a bust of Leaflike magnitude. Do agree that the Jets probably didn't do him any favors (other than add some nice weapons in the offseason), and that he needs to go to another team if he's going to turn things around.

I'm not necessarily a fan of Fields or not a fan of Hurts. You asked different things about both of them. I don't think Hurts has the ability to be in the Top 5 of QBs in the NFL long term, and he'd have a hard time maintaining a top 10 spot. I think Fields could get there at some point, but honestly it would involve putting a better supporting cast around him and having him try to do his best Lamar Jackson imitation less.

I think we've beaten this horse to death. Obviously I'm higher on Hurts than you are and you're much higher on Fields than I am. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Lol don't Bears fans wish? It was an allegory to illustrate that just because a take is unpopular at the time doesn't mean it's wrong. And the closest thing the NFL has had to Michael Jordan is Peyton Manning.

I know what you were getting at. I was being a smartass. Also, my comment on you being the only person on the planet who would take Fields over Lawrence is as of today than as of draft day (although it's probably correct back then as well). While they both struggled their rookie years, Lawrence was head and shoulders much better in his 2nd year with the arrow pointing further up than Fields.

This is missing the point (see above), but I'm pretty sure they would've been happier with six championships rather than two.

Yeah, I know. Just had to stick up for Hakeem and the Rockets. I'm not a fan or anything, but IMO if a team drafts someone who has a HOF career and brings them multiple championships then it's not really a mistake no matter on what they missed out on. Now Portland drafting Sam Bowie, THAT was a mistake.

For the most part, I'm just going to agree to disagree here on the ones you disagreed on. I only have 2 points in response:

1) I never said Murray was a Top 10 QB or junk. I will say he probably hasn't lived up to the lofty expectations of a #1 overall pick, evidenced by the fact that the Cardinals were hesitant to extend him. But there was also a reason that they finally did give him a 5 year, $230.5 million extension. He's a player who has been in MVP discussions in the past. It's not out of the realm of possibility for him to return to that form.

Junk was paraphrasing and exaggerating, but here's what you said about him when arguing that Lincoln Riley QBs don't make it in the NFL:

the Cardinals hesitantly and almost begrudgingly resigned Kyler Murray, originally putting a film study clause in his contract, he seems disappointing as well.


Obviously, not a glowing endorsement. Then you listed 14 QBs you think will be better than Hurts next year w/ Murray being one of them. So maybe you don't think he's a top 10 QB, but you at least think he's in that range.

A big reason why Murray was selected #1 overall and given his extension is b/c of the man crush Cliff Kingsbury has had on him since Murray was in HS. Most of what I read going into the '19 draft was that mostly unanimous consensus around the league was that Murray was nowhere near the #1 overall pick, but the Cardinals thought he was due to said man crush. Similar w/ his extension.

And yes, Murray played pretty well his first couple of years and was in the MVP conversation for the first half of '21. Then his play completely fell off and he obviously had a bad year last year. Could be wrong, but I think he's going to struggle at least next year w/ a new coaching staff.

2) Interestingly enough, it was our board's own Lawrence Owen that convinced me that Daniel Jones was a possibility. Jones also started using his legs more this year, but more importantly continued his longstanding trend of getting better at protecting the football. He also had a very poor supporting cast outside of Saquon Barkley last season. If he got some better weapons and continued to take care of the ball well, a 4,500 total yard, 35 total TD season wouldn't be out of the question, and that would likely be better than Hurts, considering that was basically 2022 Hurts's stat line and I am anticipating regression from that.

Jones definitely improved considerably last year, but that took him from being a total bust to maybe he might work out status. He'll have to make a similar if not bigger leap in '23 to have a better year than Hurts, which I don't think he has in him.


Anyway, to put an end to the pissing contest here's what I propose: a gentlemen's bet where Hurts has a better year in '23 than half of the QBs you listed in your maybe group. The loser has to post a thread on here stating that they were wrong and eat their crow. Obviously if serious injuries come into play then the bet's off.

Also, we can the same bet with Lawrence vs. Fields for next year.

You in for either of them?

[Lov2fish]

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

Anyway, to put an end to the pissing contest here's what I propose: a gentlemen's bet where Hurts has a better year in '23 than half of the QBs you listed in your maybe group. The loser has to post a thread on here stating that they were wrong and eat their crow. Obviously if serious injuries come into play then the bet's off.

Also, we can the same bet with Lawrence vs. Fields for next year.

You in for either of them?

He won't. If he had to eat crow for how many times his assessment of talent was way off he would be 350 lbs. I said Fields would bust. He will, he is a one trick pony and he isn't playing cupcakes every week. They (DC'S) will have him dialed in for 23 season.

I said if they put a few pieces around Lawrence he would dominate AFC south for the foreseeable future. Bet my assessment is more spot on.

[IndyNorm]

Originally Posted by Lov2fish

He won't. If he had to eat crow for how many times his assessment of talent was way off he would be 350 lbs. I said Fields would bust. He will, he is a one trick pony and he isn't playing cupcakes every week. They (DC'S) will have him dialed in for 23 season.

I said if they put a few pieces around Lawrence he would dominate AFC south for the foreseeable future. Bet my assessment is more spot on.

Figured he wouldn't. Next time it looks like we're going to get into a pissing contest I'll just lead off with that and save myself the time and headache of trying to reason with him

[Dewey 5]

Originally Posted by Puck

I am officially on the AR15 bandwagon. Swing big or go home. This kid has HUGE upside

Same. We would have to give up way too much to move up for Stroud. I'm firmly on the AR15 train.

[JAFF]

Originally Posted by Dam8610

I'd gladly give them the 4th pick, Taylor, and Leonard, get Stroud, and keep next year's 1. That's the best of all worlds IMO.

You cant improve the Colts by trading away the best talent for possible improvements with draft picks. Taylor would be a huge help to a rookie Qb. I dont understand how losing pro bowl talent can improve the team.

Has there been a player on the D that has made more plays than Leonard? Trading him doesnt make the team better. And both of them coming off injuries wont get squat.

[njcoltfan]

There definitely should be an argument forum !!!!!!!!!!