It's Done! Frank is gone!

[Chromeburn]

Originally Posted by rm1369

There is nothing unique here. Every team looking for a QB is faced with the same dilemmas. To me that is literally the job for the GM of a rebuilding team. I’m not suggesting it’s easy by any means. You are pointing out how hard it is while saying the plan is to luck into a franchise guy falling to them that everyone else misses. I’m sorry, I don’t follow the logic. The way I see it you have three legit options: tank and earn a high enough pick to draft one, pay the price to move up to get one, or build the team around a mediocre vet and build up the supporting cast to help him. Ballard has done none of the three. He gets Rivers but doesn’t go in on the rest of the roster (especially WR) and then doesn’t want him back for a 2nd year. He gets Ryan then rolls the dice at LT, RG, WR, and TE. He hit at WR, but missed on the others. TE will be good in the future - a common theme. He can’t even find an average guy worthy of building around, so everything else becomes irrelevant. Buckner, JT, Grover, Okereke, Leonard, etc all waisted because he’s trying to half ass the most important position in sports.

The issue isn’t that Ballard hasn’t magically found a franchise QB, it’s that he has no logical plan to win given the teams current circumstances. Wait until something falls in our lap is not an acceptable plan. Pacers destroyed their entire fan base using the same philosophy. Ballard’s Colts are well on their way.

And can I ask what is unrealistic about not taking 3-4 years to address WR and LT? Maybe one of their attempts at lucking out with someone else’s cast off would have worked if there was a better supporting cast. Rivers and Ryan both may have been good enough given enough support.

I’m curious, how long is to long on the QB carousel before you think they need to try something different?

Every team in the league has weak areas. Every team has turnover at positions. It's just the way it goes. You can't fill every position with a great player. They debated LT vs DE last year and went with DE. They still drafted a LT but he is raw. WR has been building for several years. He continually drafts pro-bowl to all-pro players. But in the last three offseasons, they have tried trades and FA to find their QB, not the draft. That will likely change this year, even though I think this class isn't great.

Grigson lucked into a franchise QB and couldn't build a roster around him. Now we have a roster waiting and we can't find a QB. And this roster was built by the current GM and it is a good roster.

Ballard has tried to build around a vet, that is exactly the plan they have been doing. We had one vet, he retired. We tried to trade for a younger franchise guy the coach wanted in Wentz and it bombed. Then we went back to the vet plan till we could get a draft pick. I think Ballard wanted Fields but Frank wanted to trade for Wentz. Ballard has been very open about what the plan is, just fans don't want to listen because they were spoiled by the Manning era and think that is the norm. That's not the norm. The norm is you have a 3 year window if you get a good team then you probably have to rebuild again.

I don't think he is trying to half-ass it, they are trying every year to find a guy. Ryan looked good on paper, and probably would be good if not for a single lineman failing in epic proportions.

How long? When the GM shows that he can't find talent anymore. That is the GM's primary job and Ballard does a good job at that. Because most GM's are not good at it. For every Ozzie Newsome there are about 5-6 GM's that can't find talented guys. The grass isn't always greener. I've seen it over and over, impatient fans think they are entitled to be good because the current guy hasn't done ABC fast enough. They scream for heads, heads roll, new people come in, the pattern repeats and then you are the Browns or the Jets.

[Chaka]

Originally Posted by rm1369

There is nothing unique here. Every team looking for a QB is faced with the same dilemmas. To me that is literally the job for the GM of a rebuilding team. I’m not suggesting it’s easy by any means. You are pointing out how hard it is while saying the plan is to luck into a franchise guy falling to them that everyone else misses. I’m sorry, I don’t follow the logic. The way I see it you have three legit options: tank and earn a high enough pick to draft one, pay the price to move up to get one, or build the team around a mediocre vet and build up the supporting cast to help him. Ballard has done none of the three. He gets Rivers but doesn’t go in on the rest of the roster (especially WR) and then doesn’t want him back for a 2nd year. He gets Ryan then rolls the dice at LT, RG, WR, and TE. He hit at WR, but missed on the others. TE will be good in the future - a common theme. He can’t even find an average guy worthy of building around, so everything else becomes irrelevant. Buckner, JT, Grover, Okereke, Leonard, etc all waisted because he’s trying to half ass the most important position in sports.

The issue isn’t that Ballard hasn’t magically found a franchise QB, it’s that he has no logical plan to win given the teams current circumstances. Wait until something falls in our lap is not an acceptable plan. Pacers destroyed their entire fan base using the same philosophy. Ballard’s Colts are well on their way.

And can I ask what is unrealistic about not taking 3-4 years to address WR and LT? Maybe one of their attempts at lucking out with someone else’s cast off would have worked if there was a better supporting cast. Rivers and Ryan both may have been good enough given enough support.

I’m curious, how long is to long on the QB carousel before you think they need to try something different?

Using veteran QBs was working pretty well until about 11 games ago, when the Colts played the Raiders and the bottom fell out for still unknown reasons. And using veteran QBs, rather that untested rookies, made practical sense due to the fact that the Colts roster appeared at the time to have lots of quality players ready to compete.

[Dam8610]

Originally Posted by rm1369

Without trading up is the qualifier. That’s what Ballard is scared to do. He’s basically said it could cost him his job if he did it and missed. So serious question - where was the QB supposed to come from if you never trade up but have a decent roster otherwise. You don’t bottom out to get a top guy. You simply wait and hope to get lucky. That’s shitty team management considering it’s the single most important position in sports.

Ballard passed on Hurts and he’s better than the team has. And I advocated in 2020 to do whatever necessary to go get someone, and I said if you didn’t like one of them then they needed to trade one of their seconds for a future first to have ammunition in 2021 to go get their guy. The idea Ballard couldn’t do more than he’s done or that he’s even managed it reasonably well is BS.

It's not "being afraid", it's literally that the franchise guy has not existed in an obtainable spot for the Colts. I think if you liked Mac Jones, as I did, it would be fair to criticize Ballard for not doing what it took to get to 14. Hell, if you liked Fields, it might even be fair to criticize him for not outbidding the Bears and getting to 11. The counterpoints to those arguments, of course, would be that Fields and Jones have not lived up to expectations to this point, and may not. Those are the best arguments against Ballard for not chasing a QB. Other than that, there wasn't really a chance for a franchise QB, and to illustrate how much draft capital it takes to trade for a franchise QB, had the Colts been willing to trade down in 2018, they could've gotten the 12th and 22nd picks from the Bills for the 6th pick.

Originally Posted by rm1369

That’s most years - especially evaluated so early. I’ve never suggested it’s easy and it’s not my biggest complaint with Ballard. But the team has a brighter future with Tua, Herbert, Hurts, and Fields. All expensive, but all obtainable. I get the risk. If you aren’t going to swing for a franchise guy then you need stability and support - like an OL and WRs. You can’t rotate QBs while taking 3-4 years to solve LT and WR. Not if you expect to win. Chiefs had stability with Smith. No coach will win with what Ballard has done.

This Jalen Hurts stuff has to stop. He's not a franchise QB. He looks good right now because he's surrounded by great talent. He would be a below average starter were he here. Same thing with Tua, who probably has 2 of the top 5 WRs in the NFL in Hill and Waddle. Before he had that, there was major bust talk about Tua.

[rm1369]

Guys all I’ll say is we’ll see. I’ve been saying since we’ve known Ballard’s methods that it would lead to mediocrity, not excellence. 5 years in I don’t see a damn thing that proves me wrong. Ballard is a really good talent evaluator, but that is not at all the same as constructing a team - which is what I believe a GMs job is. If you don’t believe there is a difference between those two things then we will never agree.

I used to have these same conversations with Pacer fans who made excuses for their methodology. The Colts under Ballard are headed down the same path. They are a fucking joke around the league. They are wasting the talent Ballard has acquired because he doesn’t understand positional value and because he is always too focused on the future to win now. Every team has weaknesses, yes. Not every team goes into a season with no DE (in a 4-3) having had double digit sacks total (not single season) for their career. Not every team acquires a 37 year old QB and then trusts the LT spot to a journeyman guard and a 3rd round rookie that has only played T for two years in his life! Go ahead and defend that shit. We’ll talk again in two more years and see if you’ve had enough yet. It doesn’t take 6-8 years to rebuild in the NFL, but that is what you are defending here (best case).

[Racehorse]

Originally Posted by rm1369

Guys all I’ll say is we’ll see. I’ve been saying since we’ve known Ballard’s methods that it would lead to mediocrity, not excellence. 5 years in I don’t see a damn thing that proves me wrong. Ballard is a really good talent evaluator, but that is not at all the same as constructing a team - which is what I believe a GMs job is. If you don’t believe there is a difference between those two things then we will never agree.

I used to have these same conversations with Pacer fans who made excuses for their methodology. The Colts under Ballard are headed down the same path. They are a fucking joke around the league. They are wasting the talent Ballard has acquired because he doesn’t understand positional value and because he is always too focused on the future to win now. Every team has weaknesses, yes. Not every team goes into a season with no DE (in a 4-3) having had double digit sacks total (not single season) for their career. Not every team acquires a 37 year old QB and then trusts the LT spot to a journeyman guard and a 3rd round rookie that has only played T for two years in his life! Go ahead and defend that shit. We’ll talk again in two more years and see if you’ve had enough yet. It doesn’t take 6-8 years to rebuild in the NFL, but that is what you are defending here (best case).

Seems you would be happier if you were a Titans fan. Sign up here: http://gotitans.com/forums/tennessee...nd-nfl-talk.2/

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Racehorse

Seems you would be happier if you were a Titans fan. Sign up here: http://gotitans.com/forums/tennessee...nd-nfl-talk.2/

Ahh yes - if you criticize Ballard you aren’t a fan. Good one. That’s been the state of the Colts for 5 years. The man is Teflon.

Why didn’t you send that out to everyone crying about Frank? Maybe because you agreed? Funny how that works. And many of you were talking up Vrabel. I’ve said shit about Tennessee. You can go fuck yourself you sensitive little bitch. Have a nice day 🙂

[Dam8610]

Originally Posted by Chromeburn

I think Ballard wanted Fields but Frank wanted to trade for Wentz.

If this is actually the case then Ballard deserves every bit of criticism for that. If you believe a franchise QB is in the draft and you have a shot to get him, you have to take that shot as a GM no matter what anyone else wants. The package the Bears gave up for Fields was nothing if he actually is a franchise QB, it's similar to the package the Chiefs gave up to get Mahomes. It is the GM's job to put together the best possible roster, and in today's NFL, any roster with a franchise QB on it is upgraded from a roster that does not have a franchise QB.

[Chromeburn]

Originally Posted by rm1369

Guys all I’ll say is we’ll see. I’ve been saying since we’ve known Ballard’s methods that it would lead to mediocrity, not excellence. 5 years in I don’t see a damn thing that proves me wrong. Ballard is a really good talent evaluator, but that is not at all the same as constructing a team - which is what I believe a GMs job is. If you don’t believe there is a difference between those two things then we will never agree.

I used to have these same conversations with Pacer fans who made excuses for their methodology. The Colts under Ballard are headed down the same path. They are a fucking joke around the league. They are wasting the talent Ballard has acquired because he doesn’t understand positional value and because he is always too focused on the future to win now. Every team has weaknesses, yes. Not every team goes into a season with no DE (in a 4-3) having had double digit sacks total (not single season) for their career. Not every team acquires a 37 year old QB and then trusts the LT spot to a journeyman guard and a 3rd round rookie that has only played T for two years in his life! Go ahead and defend that shit. We’ll talk again in two more years and see if you’ve had enough yet. It doesn’t take 6-8 years to rebuild in the NFL, but that is what you are defending here (best case).

It does take 6-8 years to find a franchise QB. Teams go decades without finding one. We are not in a rebuild. We are looking for a QB. This team was good enough to compete till the line collapsed. The defense is really fucking good. That says a lot about a roster when you are competitive and you don’t have good QB play. Yeah he made a bad move at LT. It happens. Bet I could go through the league and find bad moves by every GM. What about the talent he has found, or do we only focus on the mistakes? This isn’t a Grigson situation where he makes bad moves AND can’t find talent. If we still had Luck we would be competing for super bowls.

Never quite seen a single lineman get a coach fired, but I think social media exasperates situations like a mob mentality. Right now Twitter is foaming at the mouth over something Ballard didn’t even say. We fire the GM, and we really are going to go into a rebuild.

[Chromeburn]

Originally Posted by Dam8610

If this is actually the case then Ballard deserves every bit of criticism for that. If you believe a franchise QB is in the draft and you have a shot to get him, you have to take that shot as a GM no matter what anyone else wants. The package the Bears gave up for Fields was nothing if he actually is a franchise QB, it's similar to the package the Chiefs gave up to get Mahomes. It is the GM's job to put together the best possible roster, and in today's NFL, any roster with a franchise QB on it is upgraded from a roster that does not have a franchise QB.

I think two factors hurt them. He went a lot later than they thought he would. And we didn’t have the draft capital from the Wentz trade. Frank wanted his old Christian buddy and he fought for him and it got him fired. When you make decisions on faith and not logic. Ultimately Ballard is going to get his coach what he wants, if you undermine him and go a different direction it creates a hostile atmosphere especially with something as big as a QB. Rumors were they tried to trade for him this off-season and it almost happened. Maybe it’s those misses that brings everything down.

[rm1369]

Originally Posted by Chromeburn

It does take 6-8 years to find a franchise QB. Teams go decades without finding one. We are not in a rebuild. We are looking for a QB. This team was good enough to compete till the line collapsed. The defense is really fucking good. That says a lot about a roster when you are competitive and you don’t have good QB play. Yeah he made a bad move at LT. It happens. Bet I could go through the league and find bad moves by every GM. What about the talent he has found, or do we only focus on the mistakes? This isn’t a Grigson situation where he makes bad moves AND can’t find talent. If we still had Luck we would be competing for super bowls.

Never quite seen a single lineman get a coach fired, but I think social media exasperates situations like a mob mentality. Right now Twitter is foaming at the mouth over something Ballard didn’t even say. We fire the GM, and we really are going to go into a rebuild.

This isn’t about a bad move, it’s about a bad philosophy. You mentioned in one of your other posts about teams winning in 3 year windows. I agree, although I think it’s slightly closer to 2 years. But show me where Ballard has ever tried to maximize a 2-3 year window. I was fine with the Rivers move but get him some damn help! Quit focusing on the salary cap 4 years from now. Will that cause a dip after the window? Absolutely. And that dip puts you in better position to get that franchise guy or at least other high end talent - like a LT or DE. The same should have applied with Wentz and Ryan. But Ballard has never done that. Not because he made a mistake, but because that’s his philosophy - try to be good for a long time. That’s a losing philosophy.

In general I agree that stability is important. I would have been fine keeping both Ballard and Reich next year IF there was a change in philosophy. Either draft a guy or fully support what you have.