ESPN: Top-25 Teams of the Past 25 Years

[ChaosTheory]

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

You guys are forgetting the '03 team, which was 12-4 and went to the AFCC game. 2 of those losses were to the 2 teams that were in the SB: Carolina in OT and the Willie McGinest fake injury game vs. the Cheats. And unlike some other years we weren't embarrassed in our playoff loss despite the refs allowing the Cheats DBs to hold every single play for the entire game.

Yeah, that whole run of '03 through '09 were top teams in each of their respective seasons.

'03 was a fun playoff run, too. Second only to '06. They just had the baby versions on Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, Clark, etc... and Sanders wasn't around yet.

Later teams had stronger versions of those players, along with other improved units... so if I stacked them side-to-side, they're better versions of '03.

Still a great team and some of my favorite moments ever (Saints on SNF, Bucs comeback, Titans in wk 14), don't get me wrong.

[IndyNorm]

Originally Posted by ChaosTheory

Yeah, that whole run of '03 through '09 were top teams in each of their respective seasons.

'03 was a fun playoff run, too. Second only to '06. They just had the baby versions on Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, Clark, etc... and Sanders wasn't around yet.

Later teams had stronger versions of those players, along with other improved units... so if I stacked them side-to-side, they're better versions of '03.

Still a great team and some of my favorite moments ever (Saints on SNF, Bucs comeback, Titans in wk 14), don't get me wrong.

Maybe on paper the later teams were better, but I still think you're shortchanging the '03 team by not including them in the convo. Also they are one of only 3 teams from the Manning years that didn't completely shit the bed in the playoffs, so that should count for something.

[ChaosTheory]

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

Maybe on paper the later teams were better, but I still think you're shortchanging the '03 team by not including them in the convo. Also they are one of only 3 teams that didn't completely shit the bed in the playoffs, so that should count for something.

I might be, but that's not my intent. I love that team and, again, it's part of that crazy 7-year stretch.

But also, I think on-paper is kind of the point. If we were looking at "best seasons", I could put them over '07. But that's why the Giants aren't listed in the article and why the '07 Patriots are #1 and not like #5.

Also, more of a separate point because you mentioned shitting the bed in the playoffs... Does it bug anyone else that a bye-week doesn't count as a playoff win? And missing the playoffs doesn't count as a playoff loss.

That's how you end up with Eli Manning having an 8-3 playoff record.

[IndyNorm]

Originally Posted by ChaosTheory

I might be, but that's not my intent. I love that team and, again, it's part of that crazy 7-year stretch.

But also, I think on-paper is kind of the point. If we were looking at "best seasons", I could put them over '07. But that's why the Giants aren't listed in the article and why the '07 Patriots are #1 and not like #5.

There's no could about it. The '03 team without a doubt had a better season that '07.

After letting it stew for a couple of days I'm not really sure why the '07 would get that much love. They were great the first ~1/2 of the season, but once the injuries set in they were an average team at best w/ a super weak schedule. Losing at home in the playoffs to a Chargers team w/ Billy Volek at QB and w/out LT really should exclude them from any sort of best of list.

Also, more of a separate point because you mentioned shitting the bed in the playoffs... Does it bug anyone else that a bye-week doesn't count as a playoff win? And missing the playoffs doesn't count as a playoff loss.

Not really. Playoff record shows who played well when the stakes were the highest (or at least who was illegally videotaping their opponents).

That's how you end up with Eli Manning having an 8-3 playoff record.

Not sure why you're hating on Eli. Without him the Cheats would probably have won 8* Superbowls.

[ChaosTheory]

Originally Posted by IndyNorm

Not really. Playoff record shows who played well when the stakes were the highest (or at least who was illegally videotaping their opponents).

Not sure why you're hating on Eli. Without him the Cheats would probably have won 8* Superbowls.

I'll always thank him before bed for that.

He's just the poster boy for the argument. Easiest to point out, plus I still have PTSD from people arguing that he was better than Peyton because of this.

Not that it's not dumb to judge QBs so heavily on team accomplishments in the most team-oriented sport... But if we're going to do that...

Eli's 8-4 record looks great because he missed the playoffs 10 out 16 years. 8-14 record is more accurate to what he was.

[IndyNorm]

Originally Posted by ChaosTheory

I'll always thank him before bed for that.

He's just the poster boy for the argument. Easiest to point out, plus I still have PTSD from people arguing that he was better than Peyton because of this.

Not that it's not dumb to judge QBs so heavily on team accomplishments in the most team-oriented sport... But if we're going to do that...

Eli's 8-4 record looks great because he missed the playoffs 10 out 16 years. 8-14 record is more accurate to what he was.

Gotcha. Yeah, anyone who thinks Eli had a better career than Peyton has no idea what they're talking about.

I do think it's fair to say that Eli (or at least his teams) performed much better in the playoffs than Peyton did. But then it's also fair to point out that Peyton led his teams to the playoffs 15/17 vs. 6/16 for Eli. And of course Peyton's career stats blow Eli's away.

[Colts And Orioles]

o


I believe that Peyton Manning's career playoff record as a starting quarterback is deceptive. One example is when the 2012 Broncos lost an OT divisional playoff game to the Ravens by a score of 38-35 in OT. Not only did Manning have an excellent game, his put his team in position to win the game by a score of 35-28 with only 30 seconds left to play in the 4th quarter, and the Ravens had no timeouts left. The Broncos defense shit the bed by allowing Joe Flacco to throw a 70-yard TD pass to tie the game, and send int into overtime. After winning the game in OT, the Ravens went on to beat the Patriots sounds in the AFC Championship game by a score of 28-13, and then beat the Broncos in the Super Bowl. If the Broncos' defense had not had that all-time chole job, not only would that loss have turned into a win on Manning's career playoff record, but it's also highly likely that the Broncos would have beaten the Patriots in the AFC Championship game (the Broncos beat the Patriots easily one year later in the AFC Championship game) ...... that would have improved Peyton's career conference championship record to 4-1 in head-on matches with Tom Brady's teams. Not only that, but there was a pick-6 that the Ravens scored in the 2nd quarter that was clearly and egregiously a pass interference on the Ravens' defense that the referees did not call. Manning had an excellent game in regulation in a game that the Broncos easily could have won if not for the incompetence of the referees and the Broncos' defense shitting the bed by allowing a 70-yard TD pass with n only 30 seconds left to play in the 4th quarter. Instead, the game just went down as another L in Manning's playoff career.

There are other examples, such as the 2003 AFC Championship game in which the Patriots' defenders were allowed to continually grab and maul the Colts' receivers without being penalized. And even with all of that going on, Peyton still somehow managed to bring the team back from a 21-0 deficit to make if a 21-14 game late in the 4th quarter with the Colts having possession of the ball and a chance to tie it with just under 3 minutes left to play. The Patriots' defenders' ability to almost do whatever they wanted to the Colts receivers was so egregious that it led to a rule change in the ensuing off-season in regard to what stipulates pass interference.

And yes, Manning had a bad game in the Super Bowl against the Seahawks, but that was a game in which the Seahawks' defense was almost literally on top of Manning on almost every play from scrimmage, beginning with the very first play of the game in which the Broncos' hiked the ball over Manning's head and into the end-zone for a safety ...... that immediately made the game 2-0 in favor of the Seahawks, and gave them possession of the ball after the free kick from the 20-yardline.

The Broncos' defense carried the team to a win when they beat the Panthers in the 2015 season Super Bowl when Manning was playing injured with plantar fasciitis, and that was some long overdue payback for a man that was largely snake-bitten in regard to his overall W-L record in the post-season ...... what people sometimes forget is that the Broncos might not have been in that Super Bowl in the first place if not for Manning because of what happened on the final game of the regular season. Brock Osweiler was highly ineffective against the Chargers. The difference between winning and losing that game was the difference between getting the #1 overall seed and the #6 overall seed. If the Broncos had lost that game they not would have been on the road for the entire post-season, but they also would have had to play an additional playoff game in the Wildcard round. Manning replaced Osweiler in the 4th quarter with the score tied at 20 and immediately led the team to the game-winning TD by going 5-for-6 on the drive.


To me, citing Manning's mediocre 14-13 post-season record as a starter and judging him largely by that is similarly as faulty as citing Terry Bradshaw's 4 Super Bowl wins and 2 Super Bowl MVP's and therefore claiming that he was necessarily a better QB than Dan Marino, whose teams only made it to 1 Super Bowl and got blown out by the 49ers by a score of 38-16.

o