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JAFF 11-29-2022 09:21 AM

Doyel: Reality is setting in on the Colts'
 
CAUTION: scrolling may be required.

http://https://www.indystar.com/stor...l/69644493007/

INDIANAPOLIS – The Indianapolis Colts played the Steelers in throwback jerseys that looked the same as ever. Not sure how that’s possible, because the design they wore Monday night was 66 years old. Same old look, blue with white stripes. Simple, like a 12-year-old designed it.

Sound familiar?

The Colts played the Steelers on Monday night with a throwback coach, Jeff Saturday, a member of the Colts’ Ring of Honor, and looked the same as ever. Not sure how that’s possible, with changes at coach and offensive coordinator, but the Colts’ 24-17 loss to Pittsburgh was their second in three games under Saturday. And it’s the same old look, starting slow and screwing up late and all the time running an offense that looks painfully simple.

Like a 12-year-old designed it.


This isn’t the NFL franchise we want around here, but it’s the one we’re stuck with for six more games. The hiring of Saturday was bold and refreshing, but so is a stick of peppermint chewing gum. Eventually the flavor wears off, as does the good feeling from that win against Las Vegas in Saturday’s debut, and reality sets in:

This team stinks.

At least you can throw the chewing gum away.

Felt like a Steelers home game

First offensive play for the Colts, and Matt Ryan throws a pass that should’ve been intercepted. It was a short pass, no farther than you to that wall, but a Steelers defensive back got his hands on it and batted it into the air, where a Steelers linebacker failed to grab the ricochet.

Second down. Ryan throws a pass that was intercepted. Another short pass, like maybe his arm is sore and it’s all he can throw, and the Steelers picked it off.


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Meanwhile, the Colts defense isn’t stopping the Steelers offense, even if Pittsburgh’s quarterback is Kenny Pickett. He might be good someday, an actual adult quarterback in the NFL, but right now Pickett is a child still learning, and the Colts couldn’t teach him a damn thing.

Look up at the scoreboard, and the Colts are trailing 16-3 in the second quarter, and it’s like nothing has changed. One of the biggest reasons Colts owner Jim Irsay fired coach Frank Reich was because the team had become listless, uninspired, especially to start games. The Colts had started games slowly for years when Chuck Pagano was the coach here, too. Reporters asked him about it so many times that, honestly, we stopped listening to his answers. Something about chopping wood or being where your feet are or whatever.


Anyway, it’s happening again. They’re losing 16-3 to the 3-7 Pittsburgh Steelers, and the crowd is giving the Colts the business. The atmosphere for the first half was as ugly as I can remember around here, a combination of bad and boring, and I’ve seen three head coaches and about 12 quarterbacks. I’ve seen ugly. Hell, I saw Scott Tolzien. Nobody show him this story, OK?


But the first half at Lucas Oil Stadium was dreadful, and if you were there, you know what I mean. If not, picture a sea of yellow. Those were Steelers fans, waving their stupid little yellow towels, and while those towels just gave the appearance of a huge Pittsburgh contingent – I’d say the crowd was 80% blue and 20% yellow – this sounded for most of the first half like a Pittsburgh home game.

First, every time tight end Pat Freiermuth caught a pass, the crowd was giving it to him: Muuuuuuuuuth! When the Colts had the ball, the crowd was trying to get in their head by chanting: De-FENSE, De-DENSE! Again, this felt like a Steelers home game.

The only time you knew for sure you were in Indianapolis was when the offense kept screwing up, and the home crowd let them have it. At halftime, after the Colts had started at their own 41 and daringly played their way into a 59-yard field attempt on the final play – the kick was blocked – the crowd booed the Colts off the field.

Yup. We’re in Indianapolis.

Colts need new QB, and losing helps

Then, the second half.

“Same players,” Saturday was telling me later, “same plays.”

The difference?

“Execution,” he said.

Sure, that’s one explanation. Here's another: The Steelers lost interest, like a cat who gets bored with a dead mouse. Seriously, that first half was so bad, so deflating, the Steelers looked drowsy to start the third quarter. Maybe that’s the Colts’ strategy, going forward: Bore ‘em to death!


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Dallis Flowers returned the opening kickoff 89 yards to set up a Jonathan Taylor touchdown, and the Colts scored another touchdown after a fumble at the Pittsburgh 1, followed by a short Pittsburgh punt, gave Indianapolis good field position again. Next thing you know, the Colts are winning 17-16, and things are looking really bad.

Because how are the Colts going to find their next quarterback in the 2023 NFL Draft if they keep beating the lousy teams who will be picking ahead of them? They’ve beaten Denver, Las Vegas and Jacksonville. Add Pittsburgh to that group, and the Colts are looking at a pick outside the top 10. Can’t find a QB there.

False alarm. The Colts defense turned Kenny Pickett into Kenny Stabler, allowing the Steelers to drive 75 yards for the go-ahead touchdown, even with star running back Najee Harris (abdominal) out of the game. A personal foul on Colts linebacker E.J. Speed, who karate-chopped Pickett in the neck area, didn’t help.

The Colts offense had a chance, though. After a slow start that extended well into the second quarter – at one point Pittsburgh had 164 yards and 11 first downs, compared to 6 yards and zero first downs for the Colts – Matt Ryan and Co. woke up in the third quarter.

Everything changed, and execution doesn’t explain it all. Saturday and Ryan said, separately, that the Steelers’ defense was giving them confusing looks early. Probably easy to confuse the Colts’ rookie play-caller, Parks Frazier. Little more than an intern a few years ago, now he's replacing offensive coordinator Marcus Brady and matching wits with Mike Tomlin? Not fair.


You ask me, Ryan made the adjustments at halftime that Frazier and his quarterbacks coach, Scott Milanovich, couldn’t see in real time. I asked Ryan about that, afterward – how much of the offense’s halftime adjustments were a you thing? – and he wouldn’t touch it. He said it was a team effort.

Sure, maybe it was. Maybe this team just isn’t very good. At 4-7-1, the Colts trail the Tennessee Titans (7-4) by more than three games.

To reach the playoffs, the Colts have to win their final five games while the Titans are going 2-4. Or the Colts could lose once, and finish the season on a 4-1 spurt, while the Titans are stumbling to a 1-5 finish. Not happening, obviously. This season is over. All that’s left are the dirge’s final notes.

We’ll always have those first few days of the Jeff Saturday Era, and the fantasy was fun while it lasted, but now we’re stuck with reality. And the reality is, the Colts are playing 2022 NFL opponents with an offense that resembles their jerseys Monday night: Straight out of 1956.

Racehorse 11-29-2022 07:08 PM

Doyel loves to spew venom. He is right about a few things, but ignores a couple of obvious facts.

First, there is not as much yellow if Colts fans don't sell to opposing fans.

Second, the offense was designed by frank, and it cannot change as quickly as he suggests. We are stuck with Frank's scheme, but have a better motivator as HC now.

YDFL Commish 11-29-2022 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 252259)
Doyel loves to spew venom. He is right about a few things, but ignores a couple of obvious facts.

First, there is not as much yellow if Colts fans don't sell to opposing fans.

Second, the offense was designed by frank, and it cannot change as quickly as he suggests. We are stuck with Frank's scheme, but have a better motivator as HC now.

Great post and I echo your sentiments entirely.

rm1369 11-30-2022 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 252259)
Doyel loves to spew venom. He is right about a few things, but ignores a couple of obvious facts.

First, there is not as much yellow if Colts fans don't sell to opposing fans.

Second, the offense was designed by frank, and it cannot change as quickly as he suggests. We are stuck with Frank's scheme, but have a better motivator as HC now.

It amazes me that people believe Reich suddenly forgot how to design / run an offense. Before this season Reich was either a HC or OC for 8 seasons. In 4 of them (50%) his teams were top 9 or better in pts scored. Yet you all believe the issue with the Colts offense is that it was Franks and not the cluster fuck of an OL coupled with a geriatric QB. Claim he had lost the team. Claim he couldn’t motivate them (although that’s a hell of an indictment on Ballard’s supposed culture focus). But claiming the offensive issues lie in the design instead of the OL and QB is fucking retarded.

And I’ll point out after the Raiders game the narrative was Saturday simplified the offense. It was discussed as how much smarter Saturday was than Reich. Now I’m seeing that’s not the case. It’s all back to being Reich - especially as the team is being called out for how simplistic its offense is.

Colts And Orioles 11-30-2022 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252302)



It amazes me that people believe Reich suddenly forgot how to design / run an offense. Before this season Reich was either a HC or OC for 8 seasons. In 4 of them (50%) his teams were top 9 or better in pts scored. Yet you all believe the issue with the Colts offense is that it was Franks and not the cluster fuck of an OL coupled with a geriatric QB. Claim he had lost the team. Claim he couldn’t motivate them (although that’s a hell of an indictment on Ballard’s supposed culture focus). But claiming the offensive issues lie in the design instead of the OL and QB is fucking retarded.

And I’ll point out after the Raiders game the narrative was Saturday simplified the offense. It was discussed as how much smarter Saturday was than Reich. Now I’m seeing that’s not the case. It’s all back to being Reich - especially as the team is being called out for how simplistic its offense is.




o


I agree that if you have an offensive line that allows the defensive front to be in the quarterback's face less than 2 seconds after the ball is snapped, the play-calling doesn't really matter much ...... and professing that because an offense that has the worst offensive line in the NFL therefore needs to have more QB roll-outs called is somewhat tantamount to saying that one ought to wear gloves when one works in a septic tank, so that they don't get as much shit on their hands than if they worked bare-handed.

And I'm not saying that calling more roll-outs with a horrible offensive line would not have been somewhat helpful, but it would have been like improving a C offense to a C+ offense, it wouldn't have improved a C offense to a B+ or an A- offense.

o

rm1369 11-30-2022 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colts And Orioles (Post 252307)
o


I agree that if you have an offensive line that allows the defensive front to be in the quarterback's face less than 2 seconds after the ball is snapped, the play-calling doesn't really matter much ...... and professing that because an offense that has the worst offensive line in the NFL therefore needs to have more QB roll-outs called is somewhat tantamount to saying that one ought to wear gloves when one works in a septic tank, so that they don't get as much shit on their hands than if they worked bare-handed.

And I'm not saying that calling more roll-outs with a horrible offensive line would have been somewhat helpful, but it would have been like improving a C offense to a C+ offense, it wouldn't have improved a C offense to a B+ or an A- offense.

o

I don’t think roll outs would be effective with Ryan - which is why I don’t think we’ve seen Saturday and new OC use them either. He’s not mobile, doesn’t present any additional threat to the D by being on the perimeter, it cuts down the available throwing options, and, most importantly, Ryan doesn’t seem to throw well on the move. Where I could argue it may have made sense was with Ehlinger. But with the shuffling at QB, Ehlinger’s inexperience, all the shuffling at OL, the young WRs and TEs, and the OL struggles I’m not sure how realistic it would have been to revamp the offense to heavily utilize roll outs in a week or two. The offense wouldn’t have been designed around them, for good reason - this should have been a run and PA pass heavy offense based on expectations.

HoosierinFL 11-30-2022 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252302)
It amazes me that people believe Reich suddenly forgot how to design / run an offense. Before this season Reich was either a HC or OC for 8 seasons. In 4 of them (50%) his teams were top 9 or better in pts scored. Yet you all believe the issue with the Colts offense is that it was Franks and not the cluster fuck of an OL coupled with a geriatric QB. Claim he had lost the team. Claim he couldn’t motivate them (although that’s a hell of an indictment on Ballard’s supposed culture focus). But claiming the offensive issues lie in the design instead of the OL and QB is fucking retarded.

And I’ll point out after the Raiders game the narrative was Saturday simplified the offense. It was discussed as how much smarter Saturday was than Reich. Now I’m seeing that’s not the case. It’s all back to being Reich - especially as the team is being called out for how simplistic its offense is.

I know jack shit about NFL level offensive schemes, but I wonder if defenses haven't figured out the Pederson/Reich/McVay schemes. These were all the rage these past 6-7 years, but all have gone down the toilet recently. Some of its injury (philly/rams) but some just seems to be a general ineffectiveness.

rcubed 11-30-2022 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierinFL (Post 252343)
I know jack shit about NFL level offensive schemes, but I wonder if defenses haven't figured out the Pederson/Reich/McVay schemes. These were all the rage these past 6-7 years, but all have gone down the toilet recently. Some of its injury (philly/rams) but some just seems to be a general ineffectiveness.

interesting take. could be.

Lov2fish 11-30-2022 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoosierinFL (Post 252343)
I know jack shit about NFL level offensive schemes, but I wonder if defenses haven't figured out the Pederson/Reich/McVay schemes. These were all the rage these past 6-7 years, but all have gone down the toilet recently. Some of its injury (philly/rams) but some just seems to be a general ineffectiveness.

NFL is a copycat league. Once someone figures out how to stop an offense the rest tag along. Very, very plausible scenario. It is the one thing I loved about Tom Moore. He would constantly add wrinkles to our offense, and present same plays with completely different looks. He was a true offensive genius. Of course I may be a little bias.

Chaka 11-30-2022 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252302)
It amazes me that people believe Reich suddenly forgot how to design / run an offense. Before this season Reich was either a HC or OC for 8 seasons. In 4 of them (50%) his teams were top 9 or better in pts scored. Yet you all believe the issue with the Colts offense is that it was Franks and not the cluster fuck of an OL coupled with a geriatric QB. Claim he had lost the team. Claim he couldn’t motivate them (although that’s a hell of an indictment on Ballard’s supposed culture focus). But claiming the offensive issues lie in the design instead of the OL and QB is fucking retarded.

And I’ll point out after the Raiders game the narrative was Saturday simplified the offense. It was discussed as how much smarter Saturday was than Reich. Now I’m seeing that’s not the case. It’s all back to being Reich - especially as the team is being called out for how simplistic its offense is.

I wasn’t calling for Frank’s head, though the OL issues regarding Kelly, Nelson and Smith seemed to me most likely to be a coaching issue based upon the fact that these guys have shown themselves capable of playing at a very high level in the past. The decisions regarding Pryor and Pinter are mostly on Ballard (though I don’t doubt that Reich had some input/say on this too).

That said, once again I’ll point out an inconsistency for those who think Frank didn’t deserve to be fired, and Saturday didn’t deserve to be hired. You can't have both. The Colts are playing at least as well as they were under Frank. This suggests one of two things, either (1) Frank was coaching at a level which was at or below that of a wholly inexperienced, grossly unqualified coach, or (2) Saturday’s inexperience hasn’t harmed the Colts at all, and he’s performing at a level equivalent to an experienced coach.

Racehorse 11-30-2022 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252302)
It amazes me that people believe Reich suddenly forgot how to design / run an offense. Before this season Reich was either a HC or OC for 8 seasons. In 4 of them (50%) his teams were top 9 or better in pts scored. Yet you all believe the issue with the Colts offense is that it was Franks and not the cluster fuck of an OL coupled with a geriatric QB. Claim he had lost the team. Claim he couldn’t motivate them (although that’s a hell of an indictment on Ballard’s supposed culture focus). But claiming the offensive issues lie in the design instead of the OL and QB is fucking retarded.

And I’ll point out after the Raiders game the narrative was Saturday simplified the offense. It was discussed as how much smarter Saturday was than Reich. Now I’m seeing that’s not the case. It’s all back to being Reich - especially as the team is being called out for how simplistic its offense is.

man, you totally missed my point. I was calling out Doyel for thinking we could install a whole new offense in-season. Teams just don't do that.

CletusPyle 11-30-2022 07:11 PM

It is sad to see what this franchise has become. If we had to do it all over again, perhaps we should have kept Peyton, traded the Luck pick for a treasure chest and drafted Ryan Tannehill to play behind Peyton for a few years like Aaron Rodgers did behind Favre. This team would be in much better shape right now!

I know to some of you this is blasphemy, but Luck totally fucked this franchise, I wish we had never drafted him!

Racehorse 11-30-2022 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 252365)
It is sad to see what this franchise has become. If we had to do it all over again, perhaps we should have kept Peyton, traded the Luck pick for a treasure chest and drafted Ryan Tannehill to play behind Peyton for a few years like Aaron Rodgers did behind Favre. This team would be in much better shape right now!

I know to some of you this is blasphemy, but Luck totally fucked this franchise, I wish we had never drafted him!

It was the right call at the time. Luck was a phenomenal quarterback, but his body was beaten into submission, and he was not willing to put himself at greater risk. i don't blame him, even though we want our modern gladiators to fight to the death.

CletusPyle 11-30-2022 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 252368)
It was the right call at the time. Luck was a phenomenal quarterback, but his body was beaten into submission, and he was not willing to put himself at greater risk. i don't blame him, even though we want our modern gladiators to fight to the death.

Doesn't change the fact he fucked our franchise.....I expected plenty of pushback, no worries!

Racehorse 11-30-2022 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 252370)
Doesn't change the fact he fucked our franchise.....I expected plenty of pushback, no worries!

I was addressing the idea of looking back and wishing for something different. Had anyone known the future, we would have traded the picks. But not knowing the future, it was the right call at the time.

JAFF 11-30-2022 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 252365)
It is sad to see what this franchise has become. If we had to do it all over again, perhaps we should have kept Peyton, traded the Luck pick for a treasure chest and drafted Ryan Tannehill to play behind Peyton for a few years like Aaron Rodgers did behind Favre. This team would be in much better shape right now!

I know to some of you this is blasphemy, but Luck totally fucked this franchise, I wish we had never drafted him!

This franchise failed to protect him and failed to teach him to protect himself.

CletusPyle 11-30-2022 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 252373)
I was addressing the idea of looking back and wishing for something different. Had anyone known the future, we would have traded the picks. But not knowing the future, it was the right call at the time.

It's hard to argue with their decision at the time, but it isn't like there weren't a lot of people that thought we should keep Peyton. I suppose those people could argue it was not the right decision, since it is very likely the Colts win at least one more Super Bowl. I have to be honest, I was in favor of drafting Luck myself, but the franchise has not recovered since he quit right before the season! Maybe if he had quit at the end of the 2018 season it would not have done as much damage?

Racehorse 11-30-2022 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 252378)
It's hard to argue with their decision at the time, but it isn't like there weren't a lot of people that thought we should keep Peyton. I suppose those people could argue it was not the right decision, since it is very likely the Colts win at least one more Super Bowl. I have to be honest, I was in favor of drafting Luck myself, but the franchise has not recovered since he quit right before the season! Maybe if he had quit at the end of the 2018 season it would not have done as much damage?

I don't recall anyone thinking we could win another SB with Peyton. Especially with all of the question marks concerning his neck. Plus our team was starting to age, and the wheels fell off under Grigson. Maybe if Polian had not let his idiot son take over the direction of the team, but he did.

YDFL Commish 11-30-2022 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252337)
I don’t think roll outs would be effective with Ryan - which is why I don’t think we’ve seen Saturday and new OC use them either. He’s not mobile, doesn’t present any additional threat to the D by being on the perimeter, it cuts down the available throwing options, and, most importantly, Ryan doesn’t seem to throw well on the move. Where I could argue it may have made sense was with Ehlinger. But with the shuffling at QB, Ehlinger’s inexperience, all the shuffling at OL, the young WRs and TEs, and the OL struggles I’m not sure how realistic it would have been to revamp the offense to heavily utilize roll outs in a week or two. The offense wouldn’t have been designed around them, for good reason - this should have been a run and PA pass heavy offense based on expectations.

Probably not many realize that Ryan is our 3rd leading rusher on the team and that Parris Campbell has had exactly 2 rushes on the year.

To be clear, I'm not advocating Ryan running the ball more. I'm just totally confused by those two statistics?

CletusPyle 11-30-2022 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 252379)
I don't recall anyone thinking we could win another SB with Peyton. Especially with all of the question marks concerning his neck. Plus our team was starting to age, and the wheels fell off under Grigson. Maybe if Polian had not let his idiot son take over the direction of the team, but he did.

I was on another forum at the time and there were several people arguing to keep Peyton, and the feeling was if he was able to come back healthy he could get another Super Bowl, I remember them arguing that if he doesn't come back healthy at least he finishes his career as a Colt! Taking Luck was a logical decision, but it was not the only choice they had and because of the way it turned out, I wish they had kept Peyton!

I will just add that at this point it is probably time to stop blaming Luck...it's been 4 years and a well run franchise would have recovered from such a serious blow by now....but we haven't!

Chromeburn 11-30-2022 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 252259)
Doyel loves to spew venom. He is right about a few things, but ignores a couple of obvious facts.

First, there is not as much yellow if Colts fans don't sell to opposing fans.

Second, the offense was designed by frank, and it cannot change as quickly as he suggests. We are stuck with Frank's scheme, but have a better motivator as HC now.

A lot of the local media seems toxic. Especially the radio guys, starting with Dakich.

Chromeburn 11-30-2022 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252302)
It amazes me that people believe Reich suddenly forgot how to design / run an offense. Before this season Reich was either a HC or OC for 8 seasons. In 4 of them (50%) his teams were top 9 or better in pts scored. Yet you all believe the issue with the Colts offense is that it was Franks and not the cluster fuck of an OL coupled with a geriatric QB. Claim he had lost the team. Claim he couldn’t motivate them (although that’s a hell of an indictment on Ballard’s supposed culture focus). But claiming the offensive issues lie in the design instead of the OL and QB is fucking retarded.

And I’ll point out after the Raiders game the narrative was Saturday simplified the offense. It was discussed as how much smarter Saturday was than Reich. Now I’m seeing that’s not the case. It’s all back to being Reich - especially as the team is being called out for how simplistic its offense is.

Damned if you do damned if you don’t. It’s a talent issue and we need more of it. Not going to happen till the off season. Unless we fire Ballard too.

ChaosTheory 12-01-2022 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 252365)
I know to some of you this is blasphemy, but Luck totally fucked this franchise, I wish we had never drafted him!

I know what you mean. And in hindsight, with the early retirement, you could say that.

Really, though, what fucked us for the long haul was the Grigson/Pagano hires. Grigson was handed 10 picks @ #1 overall in 2012. Got some players there. But beyond that, you could count on one hand the number of good players he drafted in 4 seasons. And Chuck was Chuck. Luck carried both their asses and gave them more credit/time than deserved. They did not build or leave much talent around him and helped shell-shock him into early retirement.

I for one am fairly concerned that Irsay is about to take us down a similar path. The move from a lower energy type HC (Dungy, Caldwell, Reich) to more of a Ra-Ra type (Pagano, Saturday, whoever in the future). And the bigger worry for me is again going from a Polian type (Ballard) to another Grigson type.

rm1369 12-01-2022 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaka (Post 252350)
I wasn’t calling for Frank’s head, though the OL issues regarding Kelly, Nelson and Smith seemed to me most likely to be a coaching issue based upon the fact that these guys have shown themselves capable of playing at a very high level in the past. The decisions regarding Pryor and Pinter are mostly on Ballard (though I don’t doubt that Reich had some input/say on this too).

That said, once again I’ll point out an inconsistency for those who think Frank didn’t deserve to be fired, and Saturday didn’t deserve to be hired. You can't have both. The Colts are playing at least as well as they were under Frank. This suggests one of two things, either (1) Frank was coaching at a level which was at or below that of a wholly inexperienced, grossly unqualified coach, or (2) Saturday’s inexperience hasn’t harmed the Colts at all, and he’s performing at a level equivalent to an experienced coach.

Wasn’t their high level play in the past largely under the same coaches? Was Nelson and Smith so well coached in college they are just now losing their technique and understanding? Sorry I’m not buying it. 2/5 of the expected starting unit sucked. That has a huge affect on a unit required to work as one. Especially early with stunts that require trust and communication. There are likely other issues as well (Qs back, Kelly’s mental health, Covid), but coaching as the primary issue makes no sense.

Let’s see how this team finishes the season before we claim it’s just as good. Frank was 3-3-1 prior to being forced to start Ehlinger. He has a proven history of recovering from slow starts. We won’t know if the same would have happened this season. With all the new offensive Additions I’d expect improvement as the season progresses. We’ll see what we get.

And for the record, the Saturday hiring wasn’t bad because of Xs and Os. At the point you fire a coach mid season you pretty much are writing the season off. Losing every game from here on out is in the Colts best interest. In that respect I believe Saturday is a better choice than Reich. The Saturday hiring was bad because of the perception around the league. Coupled with the QB interference from Irsay, the Colts are a clown show. The top candidates aren’t looking for clown shows. It’s possible Irsay overcomes that with money, but I don’t see the Colts being regarded as a top destination for coaches in the off-season. Irsay and Ballard’s handling of QB position, Reich, and Saturday will be a huge reason why. Anyone who thinks guys that have spent their careers working their way up the ranks won’t be put off by the firing of Reich (after the QB debacle) and the hiring of a guy with no experience is simply wrong. That’s the issue with the situation.

rm1369 12-01-2022 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 252360)
man, you totally missed my point. I was calling out Doyel for thinking we could install a whole new offense in-season. Teams just don't do that.

And I’m pointing out there is no need to install a whole new offense. The offense wasn’t the issue - the players are. A bad OL and a geriatric QB. The OL will likely continue to improve incrementally with Raimann taking his lumps. It’s simplistic based on the scaling down and the inability to throw deep due to the OL and QB - not the scheme.

And I’m curious, if you think the team needs to install a whole new offensive system and that will take time, then WTF was the point of firing Reich? If they need a new system AND can’t install it quickly then how do they win this season? Are you admitting that firing Reich was giving up on this season?

Regardless what is it you want the local media to write? What the fuck is the positive they should focus on? You want fluff pieces saying how Saturday is a coaching genius at 1-2? How the hiring of a coach with no experience and an OC with no experience straight out of high school are the wave of the future? This is a poorly constructed team, playing poorly, coached by talented yet inexperienced people, and ran by a guy meddling more and more. It’s a shit show and the coverage should be exactly that. Doyle’s job isn’t to provide positive PR for the team, it’s to accurately cover them. The piece seemed pretty accurate to me.

Chromeburn 12-01-2022 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252415)
And I’m pointing out there is no need to install a whole new offense. The offense wasn’t the issue - the players are. A bad OL and a geriatric QB. The OL will likely continue to improve incrementally with Raimann taking his lumps. It’s simplistic based on the scaling down and the inability to throw deep due to the OL and QB - not the scheme.

And I’m curious, if you think the team needs to install a whole new offensive system and that will take time, then WTF was the point of firing Reich? If they need a new system AND can’t install it quickly then how do they win this season? Are you admitting that firing Reich was giving up on this season?

Regardless what is it you want the local media to write? What the fuck is the positive they should focus on? You want fluff pieces saying how Saturday is a coaching genius at 1-2? How the hiring of a coach with no experience and an OC with no experience straight out of high school are the wave of the future? This is a poorly constructed team, playing poorly, coached by talented yet inexperienced people, and ran by a guy meddling more and more. It’s a shit show and the coverage should be exactly that. Doyle’s job isn’t to provide positive PR for the team, it’s to accurately cover them. The piece seemed pretty accurate to me.

I think it was. You can't fire your offensive coordinator and your offensive play calling head coach and expect things to improve. Doesn't work that way.

Chaka 12-01-2022 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252405)
Wasn’t their high level play in the past largely under the same coaches? Was Nelson and Smith so well coached in college they are just now losing their technique and understanding? Sorry I’m not buying it. 2/5 of the expected starting unit sucked. That has a huge affect on a unit required to work as one. Especially early with stunts that require trust and communication. There are likely other issues as well (Qs back, Kelly’s mental health, Covid), but coaching as the primary issue makes no sense.

Let’s see how this team finishes the season before we claim it’s just as good. Frank was 3-3-1 prior to being forced to start Ehlinger. He has a proven history of recovering from slow starts. We won’t know if the same would have happened this season. With all the new offensive Additions I’d expect improvement as the season progresses. We’ll see what we get.

And for the record, the Saturday hiring wasn’t bad because of Xs and Os. At the point you fire a coach mid season you pretty much are writing the season off. Losing every game from here on out is in the Colts best interest. In that respect I believe Saturday is a better choice than Reich. The Saturday hiring was bad because of the perception around the league. Coupled with the QB interference from Irsay, the Colts are a clown show. The top candidates aren’t looking for clown shows. It’s possible Irsay overcomes that with money, but I don’t see the Colts being regarded as a top destination for coaches in the off-season. Irsay and Ballard’s handling of QB position, Reich, and Saturday will be a huge reason why. Anyone who thinks guys that have spent their careers working their way up the ranks won’t be put off by the firing of Reich (after the QB debacle) and the hiring of a guy with no experience is simply wrong. That’s the issue with the situation.

I largely agree with your last paragraph, with the possible exception of writing the season off (With the loss to the Steelers, I'll admit its probably over, but this wasn't a "normal" midseason firing - Irsay even said it was Saturday or nobody else). Regardless, like you I absolutely hate the perception all of this has created, and the media is more than happy to goose the controversy every time something goes wrong. As far as coaches/GMs, it might be mostly irrelevant if (as I tend to believe) Ballard and Saturday will be back next year. Assistant coaches are the main concern in that scenario, though. Irsay seemed to have a pretty good track record up this year, and the guy has been exceedingly loyal and patient in the past, so hopefully any candidates can see past this situation and remember that.

As to your other points, I absolutely agree everything's a work in progress and we'll know much more by the end of the year. I was just railing (again) against the media and fans who have somehow already reached their verdicts on Reich and Saturday. I liked Reich honestly and was sad to see him go. I think he's a good coach and I hated how it all went down. But then Sirianni kind of irritated me with his "THIS IS FOR FRANK" garbage after his team underperformed and barely squeaked out a victory against Saturday and the Colts, and I started thinking, "are you really that dense to not understand how the Irsay might have been distressed at the team's performance?" It's not like Frank is a martyr or anything - whether you like it or not Sirianni, anyone in his position, particularly after the collapse last year, is going to be on thin ice.

rm1369 12-01-2022 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromeburn (Post 252433)
I think it was. You can't fire your offensive coordinator and your offensive play calling head coach and expect things to improve. Doesn't work that way.

I agree. I believe Reich was fired to satisfy the frustrated fans, not as any means of actual improvement. Reich is a good coach (not great). The primary issue is talent. Both Irsay and Ballard know that.

Racehorse 12-01-2022 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252415)
And I’m pointing out there is no need to install a whole new offense. The offense wasn’t the issue - the players are. A bad OL and a geriatric QB. The OL will likely continue to improve incrementally with Raimann taking his lumps. It’s simplistic based on the scaling down and the inability to throw deep due to the OL and QB - not the scheme.

And I’m curious, if you think the team needs to install a whole new offensive system and that will take time, then WTF was the point of firing Reich? If they need a new system AND can’t install it quickly then how do they win this season? Are you admitting that firing Reich was giving up on this season?

Regardless what is it you want the local media to write? What the fuck is the positive they should focus on? You want fluff pieces saying how Saturday is a coaching genius at 1-2? How the hiring of a coach with no experience and an OC with no experience straight out of high school are the wave of the future? This is a poorly constructed team, playing poorly, coached by talented yet inexperienced people, and ran by a guy meddling more and more. It’s a shit show and the coverage should be exactly that. Doyle’s job isn’t to provide positive PR for the team, it’s to accurately cover them. The piece seemed pretty accurate to me.

Doyel has never posted anything positive about the team. Even when they were winning,

Racehorse 12-01-2022 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252448)
I agree. I believe Reich was fired to satisfy the frustrated fans, not as any means of actual improvement. Reich is a good coach (not great). The primary issue is talent. Both Irsay and Ballard know that.

Not talent. We have a line that is playing worse than their talent. We have a great defense even without Leonard, who is one of the best in the game. One could even make an argument that if he were playing, we would have three or four more wins, because he gets turnovers when we need them the most. His absence is hurting the team almost as much as having Ryan as QB. It's not like we are losing badly. Most games have been one possession scores, which Leonard flips in our favor with his ball punching skill.

IndyNorm 12-01-2022 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rm1369 (Post 252405)
Wasn’t their high level play in the past largely under the same coaches? Was Nelson and Smith so well coached in college they are just now losing their technique and understanding? Sorry I’m not buying it. 2/5 of the expected starting unit sucked. That has a huge affect on a unit required to work as one. Especially early with stunts that require trust and communication. There are likely other issues as well (Qs back, Kelly’s mental health, Covid), but coaching as the primary issue makes no sense.

I was going to say the same but haven't had much of a chance to get on here this week until tonight. The OL had the same head coach since '18 and same OL coach since '19. I suppose Mawae may have fucked them up, but he was hired prior to '21 and being a HOFer I'm sure he knows how to teach blocking techniques. Pryor and Pinter coming in definitely hurt, but it doesn't explain things like Kelly getting tossed around like a rag doll for entire games on end. Definitely much more to it than just coaching.

apballin 12-02-2022 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lov2fish (Post 252346)
NFL is a copycat league. Once someone figures out how to stop an offense the rest tag along. Very, very plausible scenario. It is the one thing I loved about Tom Moore. He would constantly add wrinkles to our offense, and present same plays with completely different looks. He was a true offensive genius. Of course I may be a little bias.

And it’s very easy to figure out the QB is throwing everything less than 10 yards so let’s sit underneath the chains

Irsay hired Saturday to keep fans interested with 2 home prime time games remaining he didn’t wanna be embarrassed on National TV… unfortunately it changed nothing because we looked like clowns on Monday night and the “motivator of men” (Colts looked real motivated to start the game) looked out matched and like he was definitely out of his league

Colts And Orioles 12-02-2022 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racehorse (Post 252489)



Not talent. We have a line that is playing worse than their talent. We have a great defense even without Leonard, who is one of the best in the game. One could even make an argument that if he were playing, we would have three or four more wins, because he gets turnovers when we need them the most. His absence is hurting the team almost as much as having Ryan as QB. It's not like we are losing badly. Most games have been one possession scores, which Leonard flips in our favor with his ball punching skill.




o


I agree on the talent ...... we've got talent, we've just played way below it.

But as great as Leonard is, I would much rather have last year's offensive line blocking for Ryan than have a healthy Leonard on defense if I had to choose between the two. Even without Leonard, the defense has been the strongest and most consistent segment of the team so far this year ...... so to me, the equation is not that we would have 3 or 4 more wins with a healthy Leonard on defense, it's that we would have 3 or 4 more wins if we had last year's offensive line blocking for Ryan. Additionally, there is a pretty good chance that Ryan may not have suffered a separated shoulder in his throwing arm in the second place if he had had last year's stellar offensive line blocking for him in the first place. And that separated shoulder probably has not yet completely healed, also.

o

MeSayDayo 12-02-2022 01:45 PM

I don't really get why everyone is pushing the notion that this offensive line was fantastic last year. Yes, they were good enough to usher JT to 1800 yards. That's great, they should have, given what they were paid. But need I remind you all that we started last season 1-5? For as good as they run blocked at times last year, they were almost as abysmal in pass blocking. I would say streaky at best.
So the devolution of this line is not a 2022 thing. The seeds were clearly in place before that. Some have suggested COVID- But I think its a combination of losing at least one starter per year from a consistent unit and trying to replace it with lesser talent. You might be able to get away with that in one offseason, but three in a row? The line, as everyone knows, is just as much about health and playing together as a unit as it is about the individual talent in each spot. Yes, the line is only as good as the sum of its parts, but that doesn't matter if players aren't afforded the luxury of building chemistry year to year with the man beside him.
Through this deficiency in doing exactly half of what is asked of them, the line forced our offensive philosophy with Reich to, over the span of 1.5 seasons, become quite one dimensional. This- and this primarily- had a domino effect that we are now seeing come to fruition. As todays NFL stands, you have pass to set up the run to be successful, and I don't think any of you could convince me otherwise. It's almost gotten so advanced that you have to pass to establish the run to set up the play action.

IndyNorm 12-03-2022 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeSayDayo (Post 252547)
I don't really get why everyone is pushing the notion that this offensive line was fantastic last year. Yes, they were good enough to usher JT to 1800 yards. That's great, they should have, given what they were paid. But need I remind you all that we started last season 1-5? For as good as they run blocked at times last year, they were almost as abysmal in pass blocking. I would say streaky at best.
So the devolution of this line is not a 2022 thing. The seeds were clearly in place before that. Some have suggested COVID- But I think its a combination of losing at least one starter per year from a consistent unit and trying to replace it with lesser talent. You might be able to get away with that in one offseason, but three in a row? The line, as everyone knows, is just as much about health and playing together as a unit as it is about the individual talent in each spot. Yes, the line is only as good as the sum of its parts, but that doesn't matter if players aren't afforded the luxury of building chemistry year to year with the man beside him.
Through this deficiency in doing exactly half of what is asked of them, the line forced our offensive philosophy with Reich to, over the span of 1.5 seasons, become quite one dimensional. This- and this primarily- had a domino effect that we are now seeing come to fruition. As todays NFL stands, you have pass to set up the run to be successful, and I don't think any of you could convince me otherwise. It's almost gotten so advanced that you have to pass to establish the run to set up the play action.

We had arguably the best run blocking OL in the league last year and a top 10 pass blocking line (finished the season 9th in sacks), which is pretty damn good when you put the two together. Especially compared to this year where our OL is either last or close to last in the league in both categories.

Agree that the replacement of players with lesser talent has definitely had an impact, especially at LT since it's the lynch pin of the OL. But this doesn't explain why we have guys (Nelson and Kelly) who got bitched once or twice a year are now getting bitched once or twice a game in Nelson's case and once or twice every set of downs in Kelly's case.

Oldcolt 12-04-2022 12:09 PM

We are who we are and talented isn’t a verb I would give to this team. Maybe a few individuals that ‘appear’ to have talent, but as a team zilch. It is the kind of ‘talent’ that disappears in crunch time and leave this fan base with a ton of ‘if only’s’ (if we hadn’t fumbled on the 5 years line, if we only didn’t throw that late interception). Maybe when you continuously make whatever mistake you need to make to lose then that is exactly who you are, a team of losers. In the NFL, with athletes as good as they are, my only hope is that this is mental and new leadership can turn it around, it has happened before and it can happen again.


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