Has Kenny Moore Played His Last Game as a Colt?
 

I sure hope not, but we all know that these situations can become dicey:

https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/st...06396223557634

I would say that it have been better for him to address this internally, but apparently he did raise the issue quietly before going public:

https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/st...27372264898561

FWIW - the other Star reporter indicated that Kenny Moore II was in attendance - he just decided to skip the workouts.

https://twitter.com/NateAtkins_/stat...08203750428672

What will the colts do! This is the worst, dogs and cats living together, MASS HYSTERIA!

Apparently he's present, but working individually only. It's been a while since I remember a player sitting out due to his contract. Am I missing someone recent? It's only OTA's and they just started at that. But I'd hate to see this drag into training camp and preseason. Always hoping for a smooth, full-participation offseason.

I can understand his perspective a bit. He's currently the 27th highest paid corner (per year) and feels he's much better than the 27th best corner. And it probably doesn't help that #20 on that list was just brought to your team from another team.

Reminds me of some Bill Polian wisdom...

“Never sign a big-name player from somebody else’s team who makes more money than a bellwether on your team. You’re asking for real trouble in the locker room by doing that.”


All that said... he signed the contract. At the time, he was the highest paid slot corner in the league. He's still got two years left on it, so if they don't want to extend him now, I don't think he has a leg to stand on. Which sucks for the team because he's important.

That's the thing I can't stand. You signed a damn contract you were happy with, live with it. If he sucked, could the team ask him to take a pay cut? Hell no.

Well, they could've cut him before he set another foot on the field. He'd keep $9m without ever contributing again and that's part of the deal he signed.

Of course that's probably another sore spot because the guaranteed money in the NFL is picking up recently. Some of these CB's are getting $20m, $30m, $40m fully guaranteed. That's before the $15m-$20m per year. You can definitely see the appeal of pushing for a new deal.

Trying to send a message I guess something tells me he’ll be out there when it’s mandatory

Honor the contract you signed. When it is up in two years, set your price. Would hate to see him go, but honor what you said you would play for.

I guess now would be a good time to discuss how the Jags absolutely roasted him in the season finale.

It will be interesting to see what happens with this.

I agree that the Colts haven't asked players to take pay cuts as often as Belicheat has used that maneuver in New England.

However, the Colts have made that type of request a few times over the years.

For instance, the Colts asked Marvin Harrison to take a pay cut after he put up two unproductive seasons (one of them injury-shortened) at the end of his career.

Polian didn't want a huge cap hit for an unproductive WR and wanted to renegotiate the deal.

Marvin wasn't interested in a pay cut, however.

So, in the end, the Colts released Harrison instead.

I’m not sure where he hasn’t. Participation in voluntary workouts isn’t violating his contract. I’d say he’s doing what the team is doing - the minimum he agreed to, except him even being there is above the minimum. We’ll see if he actually holds out - then you have something to complain about. But even then it being a business is a two way street. Teams cut players when they under perform their contract, why shouldn’t players be able to use what little leverage they have to maximize their pay when they out perform it?

Its not about OTAs - voluntary or not. the point in "honoring your contract" is that you agreed to terms and now you want to change those terms because you want more. with the teams having the ability to "get out" of their part by cutting a player at any time, players and agents need to get guaranteed money set in the contract.

Teams ask to renegotiate contracts as well. Do you complain that they aren’t living up to their contracts? Asking to renegotiate is not abnormal when it is unbalanced - in either direction. It is also not the same as “not honoring your contract.”

Players like the longer contracts, more security. A short term would pay more per year, but with less security.

I have a problem when they get the long term and then learn the price of security.

The NFL is a competitive capitalist world that pits billionaires against millionaires. I can see both sides but really just root for the Colts. So from that I hope things work out so there are not repercussions down the line. Not worried about losing Moore, everybody gets replaced eventually. Moore is an important cog, but not an irreplaceable one. Don’t want this to fester.

usually that's just moving money around for cap purposes.

Yes, when teams restructure contracts, it usually involves "cap math" where they are converting base salary into a bonus and prorating that bonus over future (sometimes voidable) years. In many cases, the player gets the money faster because they will usually get the bonus money upon agreeing to the restructure.

However, teams can also ask players to take a pay cut. Marvin Harrison was one example for the Colts, there are others as well.

This is exactly correct.

It's the kind of stuff that leads many people to conclude, wrongly, that the salary cap is "funny money" or meaningless. But the reality is that when you look closely at what's being done in these transactions, the piper must always be paid and there will be repercussions for the teams in later years.

I don't really agree with this in a purely technical sense. I assume you're referring to instances where the team wants a player to take a paycut, rather than a renegotiation as a pure salary cap move, right?

I'll say at the outset that none of us have seen the actual contracts, so it's not possible to say with certainty what each side is allowed to do. However, in most cases, a team can ask a player to take a pay cut because the contract has given the team that leverage. If the player is entering into a non-guaranteed year, the team is free to ask for a reduction, and the player is free to decline. However, the player knows that he risks getting cut and receiving nothing, so he'll probably work with the team.

Conversely, the shoe is on the other foot in some contracts, most notably the recent Deshaun Watson contract. That one, I understand, is a fully guaranteed, $230M contract. The team has no leverage whatsoever, so long as Watson lives up to whatever additional terms (morality clauses, etc.) might exist in the contract. Now, the Browns could always ASK him to take less at some point, sure, but he'll just give them the finger. The Browns could not realistically cut him and would save nothing by doing so.

So it comes down to the contract. While lots of people say "I prefer millionaires to billionaires" and thus reflexively side with the players, the truth is that both sides are exceedingly well represented in their contractual negotiations, so it's not like the owners can usually "put one over" on the player (unless the player goes without representation, which some decide to do for unknown reasons).

Players and teams are (almost) always free to ask the other side to make a change. Yes, who has the leverage varies by scenario, but asking is not a violation of any contract I have ever heard of in the NFL. And that was part of my point to those criticizing Moore for not “honoring his contract”. Nothing Moore has done to date has violated his contract. He is skipping voluntary workouts and letting the team know he is unhappy. That is not a violation of his contract.

As far as players taking less to stay with a team it isn’t uncommon. Off the top of my head I can name two players who did it last off-season- Funchess in GB and the Bills center. Did the Bills or GB not honor their contracts by asking those players to renegotiate? Of course not. That’s my point - guys here complaining don’t complain when a team uses their leverage (the threat of a cut) to push players to take less, yet they are quick to criticize a player outplaying his contract for using his leverage (threat of a holdout, which Moore has not even done yet to my knowledge) to push a team to pay more.

Interesting strategy considering how he ended last year. Renfro took his fucking lunch money.

I guess he figures his leverage is likely strongest now. I like Moore, but I’m not really sure how much.

I used to get irritated but I don’t fault guys like Moore for trying to maximize his earnings. Not anymore.

Football is an absolutely brutal sport and the teams will very rarely show any loyalty at all to a non quarterback.

Get as much as you can, I say. Not a single person posting here would do any differently.

I would do it differently. Call me old fashion, but my word means more to me than money. I get the, make all you can, but integrity is a real thing.

We all know this is because Gilmore walked in the door making more money, but he’s a vet super champ and defensive player of the year. That’s what I’d be telling Kenny if I’m Ballard right now

I guess the distinction is that Moore’s threat in your scenario is to breach his contract, which he has no legal right to do. The team’s threat is exercise a contractual right which isn’t favorable to the player. If the team tried to bully the player into modifying his contract by threatening to withhold money legally guaranteed under the contract, that would be comparable.

I tend to believe that these days, each side goes into these contracts with both eyes open. While I certainly understand and sympathize with Moore’s disappointment over the increases in CB salaries since he signed his agreement, I find it hard to support or endorse any threat to hold out. He is threatening to deny the Colts the benefit of their bargain with him. They rolled the dice and had a favorable outcome. When they signed Funchess a few years ago, that gamble didn’t work out as well, but as far as I know the Colts paid him anyway. Absent some evidence Moore was tricked or unfairly taken advantage of, it’s just bad faith in my view. Yes, it’s leverage because he’s a popular player and the Colts don’t want to lose him, but its unfair leverage in my opinion, and from a strict contractual perspective it’s plainly wrong.

That said, you are correct that he’s done nothing so far other than ask for an increase, and it’s possible that the Colts could elect to grant him his wish (likely with other contractual terms attached, such as an extension, options, etc.) or that he backs down. However, he is signaling a potential future hold out, and the Colts apparently weren’t willing to do anything when he approached them privately, so the fact that this has escalated into the public domain is not a very good sign. It also puts the Colts in a difficult position now that this is public, since if they give in to his demands then it might be seen to encourage other players to do the same. Sometimes the solution is to trade him to someone who is willing to rework the deal.

Yeah, he is good but not elite.
Time to train the next slot CB.

I wanted to respond earlier, but you've said pretty much all I wanted to with your last few posts. Particularly about how the player-team relationship isn't exactly a two-way street because both parties have different responsibilities (service vs. investment).

RM is right to point out that Moore hasn't done anything yet that violates his contract.

Of course I think you're right to also point out the likelihood of a continued hold-out through mandatory events. Making it public is the first step.

My initial gut feeling is this is the appropriate response. Are there any other teams that have a young CB Indianapolis can plug in the slot? Maybe this is a chance to get younger/cheaper at the position and steal a draft pick or something.

I kind of wish they would have traded him to the raiders instead, now. I get and understand why players leverage when they do but with how this team closed out last year I find this unpalatable.

He can go somewhere else and worry about his pro bowls and getting paid for not winning games or going to the Playoffs.

Guess I don't blame him, but seems a year early since he has 2 years left on his contract. Also, doesn't help his cause that, as others have pointed out, he sucked down the stretch when the team was shitting the bed.

Trying to get more from the team is done all the time. On my list of things that are immoral renegotiating a contract in the NFL runs just behind speeding. It may be technically breaking the law but if I take into account how the owners treat players (I'm looking at how fucked up their response has been to CTE with John Mackey as the poster boy for the Colts-THAT is immoral) I really could care less. Owners have all the money and power and take total advantage of it all the time. Having said all of that, if Kenny pushes it I am with the group that would trade him (but for draft picks) and wish him well. He ain't irreplaceable by any means.

o


Russ Francis actually quit playing for one full year, partly because he was so disgusted at how the NFL treated his paralyzed best friend, Darryl Stingley ...... he was talked out of retirement by Bill Walsh when Francis was in Hawaii, working for ABC Sports at the Pro Bowl.




https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....05i/654595.jpg

o

Exactly , Jonathan Taylor showed up Kenny!!! Talk about under paid!!!

Made 1.7 while his backup made 6 mil and he’s still showing up

Holder mentioned a couple things in an article I read this morning which were interesting. First, apparently Moore changed agents just recently.

Second, Holder mentioned that Moore’s current extension was signed in 2019, after his second year in the league. That’s interesting because it means that even without the contract, the Colts would more or less have had control of Moore for two additional years before he’d become an unrestricted free agent. So they likely overpaid Moore for those first two years to compensate for the length of the contract (according to Spotrac, he got the biggest chunk of cash in the first year), and so far Moore’s only lost one free agent year under the deal. So to the Colts, the most valuable part of the deal are the next two (2022 and 2023) and these are the ones Moore wants to negate. I'd imagine that will anger the Colts.

According to Holder, at present the Colts are not interested in negotiating, and believe his deal was fair. So the pieces seem to be in moving into place for a showdown.

He took the guaranteed early money he could’ve gambled on himself and turned it down. Something has swollen this dudes head, new agent or whatever but this isn’t a good move Kenny in my opinion you have zero bargain chips here. You played like shit the last 3 games and you were overpaid earlier in your deal when the colts didn’t have to give you shit. Not to mention you may not even matter to Gus Bradley to quote fast and furious here “shitty call O Conner”

Not sure how agents get paid, but it seems the new agent isn’t getting as big of a slice as he would like and is talking him into this move. Agents, like any other lawyer, are the scum of the earth. They later become the worst of the worst by going into politics. Total scumbags.

To be fair Moore got a 33 million dollar contract of which 9 million was guaranteed. The Colts protected themselves, if he had gotten hurt badly they would have cut him and saved themselves 24 million (cost Kenny 24 million). It is the way they play the game in the NFL, there are no 'good' guys here, it is all just about money. If the players had never fought back they would still have zero free agency and be making a fraction of what they make AND the fucking owners would be pocketing the money. Having said all of that I agree that Kenny has very little bargaining chips here. It is a year to early to be asking for this. He has to know that.

The thought of having a Le'Veon Bell type situation on the Colts grosses me out. I hope none of our guys turns out to be like him.

Last thing I’m gonna say, undrafted from a small school he was given an opportunity when there were plenty of guys drafted on our team ahead of him

Colts gave him a hell of an opportunity mainly Pagano, he’s definitely earned his spot but he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in without the Colts they not only gave him a chance they’ve promoted and pushed his story

And now this… I don’t like it at all hopefully it ends up being nothing

They also would have cut him in a heartbeat if he hadn’t performed. I don’t begrudge players trying to get their money when they can. I think most fans lose sight of reality because of the amount of money involved. If Moore was an underpaid IT professional people would think differently about him pushing his employer for more money. Yeah there are obvious differences, but let’s not forget that among those differences is the fact Moore is literally one play away from being out of his profession for the rest of his life. He also has an extremely small window to earn. And the league doesn’t exactly have a great track record with taking care of players once they are used up.

My guess is Moore doesn’t hold out and plays this year, then is traded in the off season. I personally don’t think that makes Moore a bad person. I wish it wasn’t the case, he’s a better player than you’d assume from this thread. Either way, Moore will do what’s in his best interest and the team will do what’s in theirs. I’m guessing that’s trading him.