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-   -   Wentz or Darnold? (http://www.coltfreaks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117823)

Spike 02-04-2021 07:02 PM

Wentz or Darnold?
 
If you had a choice for the Colts, who would you want Wentz or Darnold?

Wentz would probably cost us a 1st rounder.

Not sure what Darnold would cost, maybe a 1st, at best a 2nd.

Don't like the reports that Wentz is sort of an asshole. But maybe Leonard would kick his ass and straighten him out.

I would take Darnold, Reich liked him according to a comment he made in 2018.

https://www.sny.tv/articles/frank-re...o-carson-wentz

JAFF 02-04-2021 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike (Post 186181)
If you had a choice for the Colts, who would you want Wentz or Darnold?

Wentz would probably cost us a 1st rounder.

Not sure what Darnold would cost, maybe a 1st, at best a 2nd.

Don't like the reports that Wentz is sort of an asshole. But maybe Leonard would kick his ass and straighten him out.

I would take Darnold, Reich liked him according to a comment he made in 2018.

https://www.sny.tv/articles/frank-re...o-carson-wentz

You think Manning wasnt an a hole at times? Brady is a huge a hole.

If you are going to be an a hole, you need to back it up. Im not sure wentz can do that

Spike 02-04-2021 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 186182)
You think Manning wasnt an a hole at times? Brady is a huge a hole.

If you are going to be an a hole, you need to back it up. Im not sure wentz can do that

Don't think I ever heard team mates not respecting Manning or Brady, unlike they do with Wentz. Wentz appears to be a different kind of asshole.

rcubed 02-04-2021 07:12 PM

wentz's injury history concerns me.

also I would not want to give up much draft capital for either one.

Puck 02-04-2021 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcubed (Post 186184)
wentz's injury history concerns me.

also I would not want to give up much draft capital for either one.

I don't think we'd be giving up a lot to get Wentz. Philly will have to do like the rams did and give compensation for taking that contract.

Something like. We get Wentz and Philly's 2nd or 3rd this year and they get our 1st next yr. and take the contract.

Mr. Session 02-04-2021 07:47 PM

No?

I hate this.

albany ed 02-04-2021 08:13 PM

I believe in Darnold.

JAFF 02-04-2021 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike (Post 186183)
Don't think I ever heard team mates not respecting Manning or Brady, unlike they do with Wentz. Wentz appears to be a different kind of asshole.

Who said anything about not respecting Manning? I do recall him requiring his area of the hotel at the super bowl where he was staying to be kept quiet. He could be demanding. Remember him and Saturday yelling at each other during a game? Manning had more pressure on him than any other number 1 pick.

Wentz has nothing to back up being a dick. Light on the resume, no sign of leadership.

Dam8610 02-04-2021 09:57 PM

I'll be fine with either if they're acquired. Ballard and Reich are really good at talent evaluation.

apballin 02-04-2021 10:50 PM

I’d prefer Darnold

NextManUp 02-05-2021 05:02 AM

I would take Darnold also. Wentz hasn't quite been the same since his knee injury. I think Darnold could be pretty good behind a good offensive line.

njcoltfan 02-05-2021 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puck (Post 186186)
I don't think we'd be giving up a lot to get Wentz. Philly will have to do like the rams did and give compensation for taking that contract.

Something like. We get Wentz and Philly's 2nd or 3rd this year and they get our 1st next yr. and take the contract.

GOD PLEASE NO !!!!! I'd rather give the keys to Eason then try to get Wentz, he's a fuckin crybaby !!!

Hoopsdoc 02-05-2021 06:25 AM

Good lord, this is depressing. Choosing between retread qb’s and praying.

Having said that, I’d take Darnold. The Jets may be the worst franchise in the NFL not based in Houston. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Darnold flourished somewhere else.

Maniac 02-05-2021 06:32 AM

Neither.

Mr. Session 02-05-2021 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 186202)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike (Post 186183)
Don't think I ever heard team mates not respecting Manning or Brady, unlike they do with Wentz. Wentz appears to be a different kind of asshole.

Who said anything about not respecting Manning? I do recall him requiring his area of the hotel at the super bowl where he was staying to be kept quiet. He could be demanding. Remember him and Saturday yelling at each other during a game? Manning had more pressure on him than any other number 1 pick.

Wentz has nothing to back up being a dick. Light on the resume, no sign of leadership.

You guys are saying the same thing, and you're both right.

If someone is holding a gun to my head? Darnold, I guess.

in 25 years I can't remember anyone cancerous on this team (Vanderjagt, maybe?), we should try to keep it that way.

Oldcolt 02-05-2021 11:05 AM

We need a LT and a QB. There will be good LTs in free agency. They will cost. I would rather have a good/great LT and take this line to the next step. I say this because it will cost somewhere around 18K to sign them. I'm not sure we can afford that and Wentz. If a trade is possible to move up in the draft for someone Ballard really likes that would be my first choice, along with signing a top LT. I totally agree with the sentiment that this looking at retreat QBs sucks big time.

Mr. Session 02-05-2021 11:31 AM

Is there a possibility an acceptable quarterback would be available outside of the first round, at least from the perspective that they can compete for the job with Eason?

Perhaps bringing in a veteran that nobody desires to start for their team but has that ability, competing with Eason and another young guy, at least gives you some form of competency at the position going into next year?

If there's no answer at LT @ #21, and no player available that is worth the pick, perhaps they can trade out of the first and use the additional draft capital to secure a better pick next year in order to position themselves to address the issue more effectively?

rcubed 02-05-2021 11:47 AM

I dont follow college FB. What does next years QB crop look like?

TheMugwump 02-05-2021 11:50 AM

Darnold. If he gets out of NY, he'll be a top-10 QB within two years.

AlwaysSunnyinIndy 02-05-2021 01:18 PM

https://twitter.com/LesBowen/status/1357722333134401539

Quote:

I've talked to an NFL source, not w/the Eagles, who hears a Wentz trade is close. That isn't first-hand information. I do feel that the longer we go without Wentz saying something like "I'm happy to be an Eagle and excited about playing for Nick Sirianni," the closer we get...

Oldcolt 02-05-2021 03:33 PM

Had not thought about it but that last point is very telling. Not having them fawn over each other even a little bit is strange if they were committed to each other. Doesn't mean, obviously, that we are the suitor. If we are it is typical Ballard with absolutely no indication or leaks. I do like that about him. No matter who we get the guy will have issues, otherwise he would not be gettable.

Ironshaft 02-06-2021 09:15 AM

Original question: Darnold or Wentz?

I would trade no more than a 2021 3rd round pick or 2022 2nd round pick for Darnold. While he could bomb here, his skill set is too good to not try and rebuild he career in a well run franchise in an offense with a strong O-Line and run game

Wentz? Not an option, IMO. Too expensive for the potential disaster he could be if he does not regain form.

Dam8610 02-06-2021 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironshaft (Post 186293)
Original question: Darnold or Wentz?

I would trade no more than a 2021 3rd round pick or 2022 2nd round pick for Darnold. While he could bomb here, his skill set is too good to not try and rebuild he career in a well run franchise in an offense with a strong O-Line and run game

Wentz? Not an option, IMO. Too expensive for the potential disaster he could be if he does not regain form.

Why is Wentz not an option, especially if he's cheap from a compensation to acquire perspective? If he costs a 3 or 4, as the most recent article on the Athletic suggests, the Colts would get him as a QB with a 4 year $98.4 million deal with $47.4 in guaranteed money, $25.4 of which comes off the books in the first year. To me, that makes Wentz a 1 year gamble. If he's good, you have your franchise QB for 3 years at well below market. If he's bad, June 1 designate him for an $11 million dead cap hit over 2 years and draft your franchise QB of the future. Either way you end up paying well below market for the QB position which allows for keeping the core of the team together much easier.

albany ed 02-06-2021 11:16 AM

Well, if you could get either of them without sacrificing a 1st round draft choice, I'd be happy. I'd rather it was Darnold, but if Wentz becomes the cheaper draft pick option, I'm OK with that.

njcoltfan 02-06-2021 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albany ed (Post 186299)
Well, if you could get either of them without sacrificing a 1st round draft choice, I'd be happy. I'd rather it was Darnold, but if Wentz becomes the cheaper draft pick option, I'm OK with that.

Let me make this perfectly clear, I have no interest in getting Wentz, but if I had to make a deal I would want Phillys first round pick for us to absorb his ridiculous contract, and Wentz, I’ll give Philly our second or third pick this year.

albany ed 02-06-2021 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njcoltfan (Post 186304)
Let me make this perfectly clear, I have no interest in getting Wentz, but if I had to make a deal I would want Phillys first round pick for us to absorb his ridiculous contract, and Wentz, I’ll give Philly our second or third pick this year.

Well, let me make this perfectly clear. That deal ain't happening.

Dam8610 02-06-2021 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njcoltfan (Post 186304)
Let me make this perfectly clear, I have no interest in getting Wentz, but if I had to make a deal I would want Phillys first round pick for us to absorb his ridiculous contract, and Wentz, I’ll give Philly our second or third pick this year.

That's not going to happen. You're on the record, but as Ballard said, there's going to be a reason each of these guys is available. If the Colts don't want to trade up for a QB in the draft, they're going to have to take a guy with some perceived warts and believe in their development team to fix those warts. Who that guy is remains to be seen.

AlwaysSunnyinIndy 02-06-2021 05:29 PM

https://twitter.com/GregABedard/stat...51026285641733

Quote:

Eagles are asking for two 1s for Carson Wentz, which has led to some dial tones, including from one team previously perceived to be a favored landing spot.

JAFF 02-06-2021 05:29 PM

https://www.indystar.com/story/sport...es/4420961001/


Quote:

All that matters in a potential Carson Wentz-Colts trade is if he can still play
Joel A. Erickson
Indianapolis Star
View Comments


INDIANAPOLIS — The Carson Wentz possibility the Colts might be exploring seems complex on the surface, full of questions that must be answered as the Eagles reportedly field trade offers for their embattled former starting quarterback.

There’s Wentz’s salary and the guarantees involved, the potential return a team must send back to Philadelphia to get him, a murky field of potential competition for his services from the rest of a quarterback-needy league.

Ultimately, however, only one question ends up mattering in the long run for a Colts team that is exploring all of its options at quarterback, according to general manager Chris Ballard.

Can Wentz still play?

May 13, 2016; Philadelphia, PA, USA; Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Carson Wentz (11) and offensive coordinator Frank Reich talk during rookie minicamp at the NovaCare Complex. Mandatory Credit: Bill Streicher-USA TODAY Sports
Unlike Matthew Stafford, a good quarterback who was available only because he no longer wanted to go through a rebuild in Detroit, Wentz is available only because his play tumbled off a cliff in 2020.

Wentz was indecisive and inaccurate, simultaneously prone to holding onto the ball too long and pulling the trigger rashly. Wentz completed just 57.4% of his passes, tied for the league lead with 15 interceptions, took a league-worst 50 sacks and finished with an unsightly 72.8 quarterback rating.

He looked broken.

So broken the Eagles replaced him with rookie Jalen Hurts for the final four games of the season, and a damning Philadelphia Inquirer story emerged after Wentz’s benching, alleging the quarterback had become a problem for the coaching staff, unable to hold himself accountable for his own mistakes.


Gregg Doyel:Colts' QB search goes from bad to Wentz to screenshots from some dude's wife

If that were the player Wentz had been his entire NFL career, there would be no trade speculation, no complexity, no contract or salary cap implications hanging around the Eagles’ neck.

The reason Philadelphia might be able to trade him, and reportedly has considered keeping him, is that there may still be another version of Wentz left in his 28-year-old body, a version that would certainly fulfill the “veteran vision” Colts owner Jim Irsay wants, the type of player who could step into the starting role and ensure Indianapolis doesn’t take a step back from its 2020 resurgence under Philip Rivers.


The other version of Wentz, the one that earned him the four-year, $128 million extension that now seems like an anchor in Philadelphia, completed 64.4% of his passes, threw 81 touchdown passes and just 21 interceptions, averaged 7.2 yards per attempt and posted a 98.3 rating despite being hit hard by injuries from 2017-2019. Wentz was an MVP candidate in 2017, a quarterback good enough to drag a flawed Eagles team into the playoffs in 2019.

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Exactly the kind of quarterback a playoff-caliber Colts team could use.

'He's more retired now':Colts owner Jim Irsay addresses the Andrew Luck rumors that have surfaced

If the Colts believe that version of Wentz is still in there, they have every reason to believe they can get it back out of him.

For starters, the obvious: Indianapolis head coach Frank Reich is the man who built Wentz into an MVP candidate in Philadelphia, and after three seasons coaching three different starting quarterbacks, the Colts front office is supremely confident in Reich’s ability to get the most out of the most important position in football.

Reich has already shown an ability to fix Wentz’s biggest flaws.

The Colts got another beaten, battered quarterback, Andrew Luck, to start getting the ball out of the pocket quickly and stop taking so many hits. Under Reich, Luck turned in the most accurate season of his career, by far, and Rivers cut down on the interceptions that ended his legendary tenure with the Chargers. Accountability is a foundational element in Indianapolis; both Reich and Ballard are relentlessly self-critical, and Colts players and assistant coaches alike say it sets an example everybody else has to match.

And once again, that leaves the only question that matters.

Can Wentz still play?

If he can, the price the Colts ended up paying would fade, even if it drew criticism in the immediate aftermath of the move. The speculation surrounding the price the Eagles have set has been all over the map; some say Philadelphia is going to hold out for a first-round pick after the haul the Lions got for Stafford; others say Wentz’s diminished value and two years of guaranteed money might force Philadelphia to take less than the premium.


Under Wentz’s current contract, the Colts would be on the hook for guaranteed salary-cap charges of $25.4 million in 2021 and $22 million in 2022.

If Indianapolis made a move for Wentz, those numbers would immediately become the focal point of any analysis of the deal.

No deal yet, but...:Colts GM Chris Ballard says the team is exploring everything

Ultimately, the cost of the deal doesn’t matter that much, even though that’s not the way Ballard typically operates, and likely isn’t the way he’s approaching any potential deal. Ballard’s modus operandi is to set a value on a player and resist the urge to pay any more than that.

If Ballard does make the move, though, all that matters for the Colts — or any other team that acquires Wentz — is how he plays.

A move to get Wentz is almost certainly a move for a starting quarterback, rather than one-half of an open quarterback competition.

If Wentz is good enough to elevate these Colts the way Rivers did and keep them in the playoffs, it’s not going to matter if Indianapolis gave up the No. 21 pick or a fourth plus next year’s third, or how big his checks are each week. The acquiring cost certainly wouldn’t matter if Reich unearthed Wentz’s 2017 form and the Colts ended up landing a franchise quarterback in his late 20’s.

By the same token, if Wentz can’t be fixed, any move to get him would be the wrong one, no matter the price. Even if Indianapolis landed him for nickels on the dime, a 2021 — and potentially a 2022 — dragged down by a performance like the one Wentz just slogged through in Philadelphia would be a waste, costing the Colts a season with a young, talented core entering its prime and leaving the franchise back in the quarterbacking wilderness this time next year.

Need evidence?

In a league where the NFL’s best quarterbacks all make $35 million or more, the $25 million the Colts gave Rivers last season was seen as too much in some parts of Indianapolis — until he turned in a better season than anybody expected. By the same token, Jacoby Brissett’s two-year, $30 million deal and $21.5 million cap hit in 2019 were mistakes, in retrospect — because Brissett failed to capitalize on his opportunity to seize the starting job. If Brissett had emerged as a bona fide NFL starter, that deal would look like a steal now.


And that brings us back to the question the Colts have to answer for themselves, the only question about the Wentz possibility that will ultimately matter in the long run, no matter how many words are written or how many broadcast minutes would be spent debating the cost in the immediate aftermath of the move.

Can he still play?

rcubed 02-06-2021 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlwaysSunnyinIndy (Post 186314)


Thats ridiculous


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AlwaysSunnyinIndy 02-06-2021 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcubed (Post 186316)
Thats ridiculous


Yes, very much so. They are hoping a team gets desperate.

Maniac 02-06-2021 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlwaysSunnyinIndy (Post 186317)
Yes, very much so. They are hoping a team gets desperate.

If a team even gives up ONE 1st round pick, they are morons. A backup QB that has a massive contract and a shit attitude? Fuck right off.

Oldcolt 02-06-2021 06:52 PM

I'm not so sure. If you believe you can get him to regain his form he is worth a first rounder. If he can't, he isn't worth shit. It is a huge gamble for sure. Reich knows the dude well, much better than me, so if he is sure he can fix him it might be worth it to the Colts. That's what I'm going to tell myself anyway if they make the trade.

JAFF 02-06-2021 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldcolt (Post 186325)
I'm not so sure. If you believe you can get him to regain his form he is worth a first rounder. If he can't, he isn't worth shit. It is a huge gamble for sure. Reich knows the dude well, much better than me, so if he is sure he can fix him it might be worth it to the Colts. That's what I'm going to tell myself anyway if they make the trade.

I wouldnt touch this guy while he has this huge contract. As long as he has promised money, he has no reason to work harder.

He gets cut, has to start from scratch, prove to the rest of the team he is a team guy. This isnt baseball, where you can have a guy play for his stats.

I’ll take Brissett over Wentz, the team knows he will work ass off for the team. He wont blame others or pout. Wentz played his way off the field, and got pissed when he didnt get to play in a lost game at the end of season really bothers me. He played his way off the field, the coaches put the next guy up. Isnt that what they say? Next man up.

The Colts trade for this guy, he will feel entitled again, with no pressure to put in extra effort.

Trade for him, NO. Pick him up on waivers with a show me contract, sure.

njcoltfan 02-06-2021 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albany ed (Post 186305)
Well, let me make this perfectly clear. That deal ain't happening.

My point exactly !!!

Spike 02-06-2021 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlwaysSunnyinIndy (Post 186314)

The hell with that. Two first round draft picks for Wentz? Fuck off Eagles.

There is only one qb on the trading block worth 2 firsts. Watson, and that's it.

Dam8610 02-06-2021 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlwaysSunnyinIndy (Post 186314)

Of course that's a dial tone. Call them back when they get serious about it.

Chromeburn 02-06-2021 08:11 PM

We didn’t offer a first for Stafford, can’t imagine we will for Wentz. Sounds like it is going to happen soon though.

jasperhobbs 02-06-2021 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAFF (Post 186328)
I wouldnt touch this guy while he has this huge contract. As long as he has promised money, he has no reason to work harder.

He gets cut, has to start from scratch, prove to the rest of the team he is a team guy. This isnt baseball, where you can have a guy play for his stats.

I’ll take Brissett over Wentz, the team knows he will work ass off for the team. He wont blame others or pout. Wentz played his way off the field, and got pissed when he didnt get to play in a lost game at the end of season really bothers me. He played his way off the field, the coaches put the next guy up. Isnt that what they say? Next man up.

The Colts trade for this guy, he will feel entitled again, with no pressure to put in extra effort.

Trade for him, NO. Pick him up on waivers with a show me contract, sure.

The colts CANNOT go into the season with Brissett as the starting QB. He is a great teammate and a solid backup but not a starter. If they can get Darnold for a 3rd round pick, go for it.

Dare they go into the 2021 with Jacob Eason as projected starter? Or perhaps Ryan Fitzpatrick.

Hoopsdoc 02-06-2021 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasperhobbs (Post 186335)
The colts CANNOT go into the season with Brissett as the starting QB. He is a great teammate and a solid backup but not a starter. If they can get Darnold for a 3rd round pick, go for it.

Dare they go into the 2021 with Jacob Eason as projected starter? Or perhaps Ryan Fitzpatrick.

I’d much rather have Darnold than Wentz. I think Darnold working with Reich could be a very good player.

Having said that, I’d rather have Wentz than Brisket.

I think some desperate team will offer more for Wentz even with that ridiculous contract and Ballard will keep looking.


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