Freeney was short. Never should have drafted that fool.


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Happy Easter

Interior linemen can get away with it more. Tackles play on an island to some extent, same as DEs. That’s why they say some guys will move inside, because they lack the length or speed to play outside. Jeff Saturday did not grade out well athletically, Mike Pollack graded out very high athletically. Very different careers. But teams don’t know how to differentiate between the two. So you track the features and traits you can. Also anomalies are called anomalies for a reason.

Freeneys game was predicated on speed. He had 32+ arms on a 6 ft body which is pretty long. But he wasn’t bull rushing and standing up the tackle with long arms. He was beating him with a first step and spin move. Freeney was also a liability against the run, something many teams exploited especially the pats.

Not all edge players are the same or play the position the same. The Watt brothers play different positions and different styles based on their abilities. Both are effective though.

Ok. Thanks chrome.


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It's a heuristic, not an absolute. Hell, I'll give you the ultimate counterexample to it: Anthony Munoz, quite possibly the best LT ever, but that was also 30 years ago. The measurements in that article are not accurate, as I've already shown.

The easy way of saying that is 33" arms.

You bring up Saturday and playoff games and don't even talk about "The Block" where he pancaked Vince Wilfork for the GW TD? Interesting.

His lack of height was actually his advantage. He had such a low COG most tackles couldn't deal with him.

Exactly, OGs and OCs can have shorter arms because it's more about technique and power on the inside than length and athleticism. Technique is important on the outside, but it's much more important on the inside.

https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=5925

That was ridiculous. I remember him at 4.44, not 4.48, but still a DE his size running sub 4.5 is insane. His speed and low COG were what made him the absolute edge terror he was.

The Watt brothers both have very good technical skills and hand usage, that's the biggest strength in their game. Same with the Bosas.

I've seen Freeney totally jack up LT's and drive them back into the QB. Don't tell me that Freeney couldn't bull rush.

If he got under his pads it was due to his size and he probably did it bc the tackle was expecting a spin move. Going outside and spinning inside was his game. Keeping the tackle off balance and guessing in pass pro was what he was good at. Strength on strength wasn’t his game. Setting the edge against the run and occupying a blocker wasn’t his game. He was just so extraordinarily good against the pass it was hard to take him off the field. But you could drive a truck through the run lanes he left behind. There were a few games he did well in the run game, but most of the time he was a liability.

If you're playing 9 tech as a DE, the LB is 1000% responsible for the B gap that was typically left open.

And it took putting Rob Morris at SAM to fix the problem

David Thornton did just fine there. He was very underrated IMO, and I wanted the Colts to keep him back then.

He was, but in 2006 it was Gilbert Gardner playing that position, and that was a huge problem. I still think Rob Morris' contribution to the superbowl run is under-rated because everyone focused on Bob Sanders.

No, he played the WIL. Nice try and thanks for playing

Correct sir. The Colts lost Thornton to Tenn. which put Cato June in the WIL, where he played well.

If I'm not mistaken Thornton at at various times, played WILL, SAM & MIKE.

Polian had two regrets, letting Thornton get away and letting Jake Scott get away.

Keeping Thornton would've made that 2006 SB run much easier.

The nfl cap nitwits screwed the colts that year. They claimed the colts had less cap space abd by the time it was figured out, Thorton was gone.

It’s the C gap, runner is going where the tackle was, not the outside shoulder of the guard. Very few 4-3 systems ran it for this reason. You need good outside LBs that can set the edge. Rob Ninkovichs are hard to find. Its pretty much a 3-4 technique.

He was moved to SAM when they got Cato June.

Cato was a hell of a coverage LB, fuckin ball hawk playing LB

Another move that transcended the game, now every NFL team wants a smaller faster LB that can cover

Yep, he was a converted safety. Now its common to see something more akin to a nickel with 2 LBs and a tweener type player like that as the third "LB" (really more of a 5th DB)

The hole that opens is between tackle and guard. That's the B gap. C gap is to the outside of the tackle, and I remember those draw plays all too well. Freeney would run the arc from 9 tech and the back would go to where the tackle was, which is just outside of the guard in the B gap. With a 9 tech DE, the B gap falls squarely on the LB behind him. The Colts may not have had the personnel to run what they were running with Freeney and have a successful run defense, but that's not on Freeney, it's on scheme and personnel the team used. Freeney was actually a very good run defender when he was called upon to do it, and I think the knock he's gotten over the years as a bad run defender is unwarranted. Those criticisms should be put squarely on Ron Meeks, who didn't design a way for Freeney to play 9 tech while maintaining gap integrity for run defense into his scheme.

He got moved to SAM when no one could fill the correct gap.

It’s the c gap. If the running back ran to the B gap it would actually be easier to defend. The LB would have to cover less space and the DT could help. The RB is running to the outside. The LB is trying to set the edge and turn him back inside to traffic.

Freeney defended well in that playoff run they won the super bowl. Scheme/personnel, blame who you want. We didn’t have the LB to properly cover it nor the DT to match the penetration. That’s why you mainly see it in 3-4 and not 4-3. But if he could play the run, they should have let him do that, not play pass every down. But his biggest asset was his speed and they didn’t want to give that up.

I'll agree to disagree on the gap. I understand why they had Freeney so wide and played to his strengths, but what I've never understood is why they didn't put the personnel in place to cover the deficiency in the scheme it created.

I will add this. No one could run outside the tackles against Freeny and Mathis. Their job was to get up field and play the run on the way to the QB. If teams ran well, it was inside of them and thats where Rob Morris used his run stop abilities. He wasnt able to make that deep drop the Dungy D MLB had to cover in the middle. Give him one gap and he help win that supuer bowl

My memory is different than yours. It seemed like people ran where ever and how ever they wanted to. I only remember our run defense being stout in those days when Sanders was flying all over the place.

I think you misinterpreted it. Freeney was three yards up field when the ball snaps. The tackle is pushing him past the QB. The C gap doesn’t travel with them, the C gap stays at the line of scrimmage. A RB isn’t running backwards to run around the tackle, he is running to where the tackle was at the beginning of the play. He is aiming for that area because he knows it is empty due to Freeney pushing up field so fast.

Think of it like a draw without the hesitation. The RB is running to the spot vacated by the DE. He doesn’t want get too close to the B gap with the DT against the guard. He is going wide forcing the LB to run to a spot to keep contain. A RB should win a speed battle with a LB.

https://www.thephinsider.com/2016/4/...nine-technique

Sanders was a good eraser but he had no durability. They never invested a high pick in a LB. they wanted fast cover guys bc they knew they would play with a lead. They figured they could live with it and be strong in other areas. But in close games teams exploited it.

It’s nice to have a defense that shuts down the run now, I’ll say that

The opposition ran inside of the DE's. Every once and a while they would stunt in, but the DE's job was to get up the field and push the QB forward into the DT's. There were so many times that Freeney or Mathis would just run past a T. The Dungy D doesn't work if you don't have a Bruckner pushing a G or C into the QB's feet.

The Dungy D was designed to disrupt the West Coast 3-5-7 step drop progression. Force that QB out of his drop pattern and mess up the timing. That's why getting McFarland finally made that D work. Outside pressure is great, but if no one threatens up the middle, it's less effective.

Sanders was the equalizer. Look at the Tampa D, The S Safety acts like a linebacker. He comes up and and makes plays. People forget how well Bethea played behind Sanders on Pass D, with pass coverage on the back end.

I disagree.

Mike Petersen: 2 round
Rob Morris: 1st round
Marcus Robinson; 2nd round
David Thorton: 4th round
Gilbert Gardner: 3rd round
Phillip Wheeler: 3 round
Pat Angerer; 2nd round

I think it was Marcus Washington, right?

And Peterson, Morris, and Washington were drafted before Dungy came in and they started using the Tampa 2. Angerer was after Dungy left, and Chris Polian had taken over most of the drafting decisions.

So, during the strongest, most successful years, it is fair to say that they never spent a first or second rounder on a LB. They did spend three third round picks on LBs: Gardner, Wheeler, and the always forgotten Freddie Keiaho.

Yes washington, I was close.

Angerer was a second after a winning year, Colts went 14-2.

I will say they did a piss poor job drafting LBs, most of those guys werent very good. Wheeler stuck around the league the longest. And I didnt include Jerry Hughes, he is listed at Buffalo as a LB, but I think he was drafted as a DE

Who was the best Linebacker during that great run? I would say Gary Brackett. And he was an UDFA.

How dare any of you not mention the legend of Clint Session !!!!

He was a 5th round pick as I recall. That certainly doesn't fit the argument that was being made.

What’s the argument? He said they did a piss poor job drafting LBs

I’d say they drafted good LBers just couldn’t afford to keep them

Who cares what round you draft a mfer

Bracket, June, Thornton, Peterson, Session, and Washington were all solid LBers

Hell I thought Freeman was dam good

Damn. He did play hard. Fun to watch.

It was a little bit of fun, maybe a touch of sarcasm.

Is it hard never being wrong? Do you have a sense of humor?

No love for Hagler?

That 2007 draft class was tremendous. Session almost matches the legend of Roy Hall.