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CletusPyle 10-12-2021 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nate505 (Post 206415)
It wasn't very clear that it was just "if he's healthy he'll play x amount of the season." It seems it was clearly made on his health, his effectiveness and the Colts being in the playoff race. If one of those factors isn't coming into play then they put that in so the Colts could recoop their pick.

For the record...I totally get what you are saying, and the Colts are perfectly within their rights technically to do just what you are suggesting. But in my opinion, if Carson is healthy and remains their best option to win games, regardless of their record, he will play. Hopefully, it becomes a moot point as the Colts catch fire and win 8 or 9 of the remaining 12 games!

nate505 10-12-2021 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 206417)
For the record...I totally get what you are saying, and the Colts are perfectly within their rights technically to do just what you are suggesting. But in my opinion, if Carson is healthy and remains their best option to win games, regardless of their record, he will play. Hopefully, it becomes a moot point as the Colts catch fire and win 8 or 9 of the remaining 12 games!

Agreed. I only would want to see this under the most dire of circumstances. If the Colts aren't within 3 or so games if the Titans in Week 11, that's where it's dire for me.

Mr. Session 10-12-2021 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 206395)
Even though the NFL is a Billion dollar business, it is still in many ways a club, and the owners make deals all the time and how you honor those deals goes a long way is how the rest of the league thinks about your franchise. The deal the Colts and Eagles made was clearly made on Carson Wentz being healthy enough to play 75% of the season...I believe the Colts will honor that agreement.

First of all, what fucking club are you talking about? How would anyone here know the nature of the intimate relationships between the 32+++ owners in this league? In addition, it's not like the owners are negotiating trades amongst themselves, They hire General Managers and Team Presidents to handle that.

Second. When has Indianapolis ever came out ahead on a trade? Corey Simon?

CletusPyle 10-12-2021 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Session (Post 206428)
First of all, what fucking club are you talking about? How would anyone here know the nature of the intimate relationships between the 32+++ owners in this league? In addition, it's not like the owners are negotiating trades amongst themselves, They hire General Managers and Team Presidents to handle that.

Second. When has Indianapolis ever came out ahead on a trade? Corey Simon?

There are plenty of stories available about previous owner meetings and interactions between owners to lead any reasonable person to believe there is a private club like atmosphere among the owners, but you're right, I have no inside info on that, just stating my opinion for what it is worth. We have seen owners in the NBA and the MLB forced out because of damage they have done to their reputations, no reason to believe the NFL is any different, so being honest and having the respect of the other owners is very important.

I realize that the owners themselves, in most cases, do not get personally involved in every trade a team makes, in fact I almost added that in my comment to head off comments like yours, but regardless of an owners level of involvement, just saying "that was my GM not me", would be a pretty lame thing for an owner to say. Maybe someone should ask Ballard or Irsay about their plans to sit Wentz in case of a losing season to protect their first round pick....at least that way they would have them on record!

Chaka 10-12-2021 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nate505 (Post 206416)
I get the salary comparison, but that one is not quite the same. For one small bonuses like that are a drop in the bucket for an NFL team's revenue stream. There's not much loss for the team if they have to fork over another million to a player for just playing him.

Now, what if there were some real tangible reward for the team to sit the player for that last game? Like the team gets more cap space the next year or something if player X doesn't hit his bonus this year. At that point how much would we see the honor vs. the team benefit?

The bargain in this case is Wentz playing 75% of his snaps. That's it. The hope for the Colts is that he would be good enough and they would be in playoff contention. So far the first part is true...so far the latter part remains to be seen if it's true. If they are in playoff contention in a weak ass AFC South in Week 11, yeah, of course you play him. If they are 1-9 then...why play him? At that point he could get hurt and then you run the risk of having a hurt QB (who was playing in meaningless games) and not having a very high draft pick to brunt the damage to yourself. And at that point the Eagles will have got a high second round pick, so it's not like they got screwed on the deal here. On no planet is Carson Wentz worth a Top 5 pick.

You’re a bit of a moving target on this. Are you saying sit him just to save the draft pick, or sit him for other reasons? Those are two different things. If there are other legitimate reasons to sit Wentz that happen to also save the draft pick (injury, poor performance, etc.), then so be it. That’s fair game. And if the Colts are 1-9, then it’s somewhat unlikely (though admittedly not impossible) that Wentz will have been playing great. Perhaps you can make a credible argument at that point that the Colts need to explore other options and see how the team performs with a different QB. Again, in my view that means playing a prospect, not a retread. And you need to factor in the damage that this would cause to your long term relationship with Wentz.

The critical point is that you can’t sit him solely to save the draft pick. I’m not saying you have to play Wentz just because it will enable you to forfeit the 1st round pick, but you do need to deal with the other teams in good faith and handle Wentz the same regardless of whether the 1st round pick hangs in the balance. As Omaha said, you let the chips fall where they may.

Moreover, though some might disagree, even if your intentions are pure and you decide to sit Wentz for some reason that isn’t obvious, I think you also need to be aware of how it will look to other teams, and balance the desire to sit Wentz with any potential damage to public perception. For the Eagles, this has played out ideally so far – Wentz has played pretty well (so no reason to sit him), yet the Colts have been losing (given them a higher draft pick). If you pull the rug out from beneath them and try to sit Wentz for no good reason, they’ll never forgive you and other teams will certainly take note of this treatment as well.

Lastly, in my player contract example, the voluntary $1M bonus would absolutely come from the team’s future salary cap - the rules don't let you pay a player without taking away from your cap - so teams are doing this despite the negative impact on their cap (and I disagree that $1M is a drop in the bucket).

Chaka 10-12-2021 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Session (Post 206428)
Second. When has Indianapolis ever came out ahead on a trade? Corey Simon?

The Buckner and Nelson trades come immediately to mind.

Butter 10-12-2021 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 206431)
We have seen owners in the NBA and the MLB forced out because of damage they have done to their reputations, no reason to believe the NFL is any different, so being honest and having the respect of the other owners is very important.

Yep, that is why the league forced Daniel Snyder to sell the WFT, oh wait.

CletusPyle 10-12-2021 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter (Post 206445)
Yep, that is why the league forced Daniel Snyder to sell the WFT, oh wait.

Well he changed the name instead....:D

Colts And Orioles 10-12-2021 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter (Post 206445)



Yep, that is why the league forced Daniel Snyder to sell the WFT ...... oh, wait.





Quote:

Originally Posted by CletusPyle (Post 206447)



Well, he changed the name instead ...... ) :D



o



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9n8Xp8DWf8


o


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