Colts Acquire DT DeForest Buckner

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

No longer have to worry about who the Colts will draft at 13.......I guess Ballard loves DT's more than his draft picks.

Pick 13 for DeForest Buckner.


https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1239643423256317957

Trade AND deal: Colts trade first-round pick (13th overall) to 49ers for All-Pro DT DeForest Buckner, who already has agreed to a massive contract that pays him $21 million a year and makes him the second-highest paid DT in NFL history behind only Aaron Donald, sources tell ESPN.


https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/status/1239645870016077825

Can confirm the Colts traded a first-round pick for DeForest Buckner, per source. 5-year deal at $21 million per year.

https://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/1239643991731318786

Been saying for weeks the Colts have been targeting the defensive line. This is a BIG move that means the Colts likely won't have a shot at one of the top QBs in April's draft.

https://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/1239644357776588801

Timely quote from Colts GM Chris Ballard, just a month ago: "I’m always going to be obsessed with the (defensive) front. I just believe that that’s how you win and that’s how you have sustained success over time."

https://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/1239645036884758529

"The 3-technique drives this thing. It does. Every time I've been a part of this (defense), the 3-technique drives this." — Chris Ballard in January


https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/status/1239647501055123459

Add a Buckner to this defensive line, and everybody gets better. Everybody. It's easier for edge rushers to get home when there's no place to escape to.

[Chaka]

No longer have to worry about who the Colts will draft at 13.......


https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1239643423256317957

Now THAT is a big move. Former 2016 1st Round (7th overall pick) out of Oregon. Will be 26 tomorrow. Here's a brief summary from http://www.sportsforecaster.com/nfl/player/21039:

"A monster inside: collapses the middle for copious sacks, and is prolific for a D-lineman making tackles. A towering talent on the D-line: jumbo-sized, yet also quick and explosively athletic. Has a truly elite wingspan with huge hands, and uses those gifts to really manhandle opponents. Knows how to get inside blockers and will move his man around. Must learn to play with more leverage and balance to get the most from his amazing size and athleticism. Gets stood up at times by mauling blockers, and sometimes gets off his feet two quickly reaching for tackles. A bit of a late bloomer who's still learning to maximize his gifts."

[Racehorse]

I love it!

[rm1369]

Not sure how I feel about this. I don’t typically like giving up a high pick and immediately having to pay a guy top money. I’m not sure they wouldn’t have been better off in the long run taking a DT in the draft with one of the top two pics. Damn good player though.

[Chaka]

Obviously Ballard not sold the QBs - at least at 13 - but I suppose he could always trade back into Round 1 with our seconds.

[Luck4Reich]

Pick up a couple more strong Defensive players in draft and this is a very good Defense.

Will be interesting to see what Ballard does with the pair of 2nd rounders now.

[JAFF]

Not sure how I feel about this. I don’t typically like giving up a high pick and immediately having to pay a guy top money. I’m not sure they wouldn’t have been better off in the long run taking a DT in the draft with one of the top two pics. Damn good player though.

How did the Colts do with Booger McFarland?

[apballin]

Monster and is already established as opposed to an unproven guy at 13

[Luck4Reich]

How did the Colts do with Booger McFarland?

Slow down...... We had Peyton Manning too.


Ballard might be ready to roll the dice this year. He HAS to add a QB and I'm sure he knows this. Colts Defense just got better while the Texans offense took a huge blow.

[Dam8610]

I hope this doesn't mean Ballard is going to give Rivers a blank check. I hope this does mean Ballard is pursuing Bridgewater.

[Chaka]

Not sure how I feel about this. I don’t typically like giving up a high pick and immediately having to pay a guy top money. I’m not sure they wouldn’t have been better off in the long run taking a DT in the draft with one of the top two pics. Damn good player though.

Agreed - we paid a lot for him and a risky move. In comparison to the Hopkins trade earlier, looks like a comparative overpay BUT we are getting a premium guy coming into his prime, so these guys rarely available via trade and never available in free agency. No other way to get him if you believe he's an Aaron Donald-caliber player (also, I'd like to see the terms of the $21M/year contract). But still, no doubt a bold and risky move.

[jasperhobbs]

Agreed - we paid a lot for him and a risky move. In comparison to the Hopkins trade earlier, looks like a comparative overpay BUT we are getting a premium guy coming into his prime, so these guys rarely available via trade and never available in free agency. No other way to get him if you believe he's an Aaron Donald-caliber player (also, I'd like to see the terms of the $21M/year contract). But still, no doubt a bold and risky move.

I don't see the risk. No guarantee the 13th pick will even pan out. Also, the guy you want at #13 might not even be there. The colts haven't been able to stop the run up the middle or collapse the pocket with an interior pass rush in a quite a while. Now they have a young, proven player.

[rm1369]

How did the Colts do with Booger McFarland?

Huh? Considerably different situations.

And I’m not hugely down on the trade. I can see the logic and the talent, but I certainly have concerns. Namely the cost of such a high pick AND a $21 / yr contract. Surprisingly this looks like win now mode to me. This a sign it is Rivers?

[rcubed]

Quick thought - I like the trade. I was thinking Kinlaw at 13 but there was no guarantee he would be there or become what we would expect. We get a proven guy in his prime years at a spot that was sorely needed.

[rcubed]

Huh? Considerably different situations.

And I’m not hugely down on the trade. I can see the logic and the talent, but I certainly have concerns. Namely the cost of such a high pick AND a $21 / yr contract. Surprisingly this looks like win now mode to me. This a sign it is Rivers?
If they sign rivers, then ok. But I hope its for 2 or less years and doesnt break the bank.

[rm1369]

Agreed - we paid a lot for him and a risky move. In comparison to the Hopkins trade earlier, looks like a comparative overpay BUT we are getting a premium guy coming into his prime, so these guys rarely available via trade and never available in free agency. No other way to get him if you believe he's an Aaron Donald-caliber player (also, I'd like to see the terms of the $21M/year contract). But still, no doubt a bold and risky move.

Definitely can’t use the Hopkins trade as a comparison - that was just plain robbery. I think it’s fair from a talent perspective, I’m just surprised they made the move now, I guess.

[Chaka]

I don't see the risk. No guarantee the 13th pick will even pan out. Also, the guy you want at #13 might not even be there.

It's risky for the reasons RM1369 said - we are giving up a first and paying the guy full market rates. And we don't know him as well as we know our own free agents, so that's a bit of a wild card as well, not to mention the fact that you never know how a guy will react to receiving this kind of money. So I think it's risky for a lot of reasons.

[JAFF]

It's risky for the reasons RM1369 said - we are giving up a first and paying the guy full market rates. And we don't know him as well as we know our own free agents, so that's a bit of a wild card as well, not to mention the fact that you never know how a guy will react to receiving this kind of money. So I think it's risky for a lot of reasons.

The cap will go up. They have room for $$ and a QB maybe next year?

[jasperhobbs]

It's risky for the reasons RM1369 said - we are giving up a first and paying the guy full market rates. And we don't know him as well as we know our own free agents, so that's a bit of a wild card as well, not to mention the fact that you never know how a guy will react to receiving this kind of money. So I think it's risky for a lot of reasons.

Which free agents on defense the colts have are worth resigning?

[Chromeburn]

I hope this doesn't mean Ballard is going to give Rivers a blank check. I hope this does mean Ballard is pursuing Bridgewater.

Rivers only wants to play for two more years. We will still have to find a QB. Rivers is a stopgap.

[Chaka]

Which free agents on defense the colts have are worth resigning?

Not my point - only saying that when you sign one of your own free agents to a big contract, at least you have the security of knowing the player well. When you trade for someone else's player and then pay him big bucks, there's an added element of risk because you just don't know other teams' players as well as your own.

[Ironshaft]

I think we overpaid but he is a heck of a talent.

Him, Houston, Autry and Turay/Banagu on passing downs couls be pretty good.

3-tech powers this defense and we now have a 3-tech of note.

Hope we have space for D.J. Reader or Javon Hargrave for NT.

[rm1369]

Not my point - only saying that when you sign one of your own free agents to a big contract, at least you have the security of knowing the player well. When you trade for someone else's player and then pay him big bucks, there's an added element of risk because you just don't know other teams' players as well as your own.

Exactly. And how well they fit and produce in your scheme. I don’t think there is much doubt Buckner will be the best DT on the Colts roster and an improvement, but will he still be All Pro level with the changes? It’s one of the major reasons free agency is so risky - so much in the NFL depends on scheme and the players around you. This is riskier than a big FA signing because not only did Buckner get paid, the team gave up the 13th pick in the draft. It’s a huge risk, for admittedly a hugely talented player at a position of need. Still a huge risk though.

For the record, I’m not saying Buckner was a product of the system or anything. Just pointing out the concern with projecting other teams players.

[Puck]

I freakin love this trade!!!!! Love it!!!!!

How long have we waited for Ballard to make a big move? Well 3 yrs... SO How long have we waited to have a dominate 3tech?

[Maniac]

Woah, ok. Didn't see that one coming. Fills a huge need.

[Chromeburn]

I don't know. There are some good players in this draft and 13 is a damn high pick. Plus Buckner plays on the best d-line in the league. He will not have that in Indy. We just made him the second highest DT in the league. Here are his stats compared to Donald.

Donald (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DonaAa00.htm)

Buckner (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BuckDe00.htm)

I guess its a risk no matter the path you take and we needed a dominate DT to make this defense function. Still hate giving up that high of a pick.

[YDFL Commish]

From Margus Hunt to Buckner. What an improvement.:) I can see Buckner playing both NT and UT sharing time with Autry and Stewart.

Tyquan Lewis is now on thin ice.

[Brylok]

Busy, busy, day at work so I just saw this news. I absolutely love it! We got a damned pass-rusher!! Dude is a beast as well! $21M is expensive but hell, the broken running back Houston just got for Hopkins is making $14M. Salaries are just going to keep going up. Master stroke by Ballard if it works out. Fills a desperate need and puts to bed the "who to draft at 13" talk. He's gonna sell some jerseys, too. Awesome!

[Dam8610]

Rivers only wants to play for two more years. We will still have to find a QB. Rivers is a stopgap.

I don't want Rivers and Bridgewater could be more than a stopgap. You're forcing yourself into a box of having to acquire a new QB in that two year timeframe if you go with Rivers. I'd be tempted to go with Winston over Rivers for that exact reason.

I don't know. There are some good players in this draft and 13 is a damn high pick. Plus Buckner plays on the best d-line in the league. He will not have that in Indy. We just made him the second highest DT in the league. Here are his stats compared to Donald.

Donald (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DonaAa00.htm)

Buckner (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BuckDe00.htm)

I guess its a risk no matter the path you take and we needed a dominate DT to make this defense function. Still hate giving up that high of a pick.

Donald's age 23-25 seasons look pretty comparable to Buckner's. We can only hope that Buckner's age 26-28 seasons go as well. I agree that the pick was high, hopefully the payoff is as well.

[YDFL Commish]

I'd be tempted to go with Winston over Rivers for that exact reason


Possibly the most stupid statement ever made on this forum!

[CanuckColt]

I hope this doesn't mean Ballard is going to give Rivers a blank check. I hope this does mean Ballard is pursuing Bridgewater.

NO!!! to Bridgewater. YUCK! Worse than Jake Brisket.

[Dam8610]

Possibly the most stupid statement ever made on this forum!

It's stupid to think Winston could resurrect his career under the tutelage of Frank Reich when we just watched Ryan Tannehill do exactly this under the tutelage of Mike Vrabel? It's a better gamble than "hope Rivers can stave off decline for 2 years, then be back in the exact same position".

NO!!! to Bridgewater. YUCK! Worse than Jake Brisket.

Interesting emotional reaction, any data or facts to support it?

[JAFF]

Huh? Considerably different situations.

And I’m not hugely down on the trade. I can see the logic and the talent, but I certainly have concerns. Namely the cost of such a high pick AND a $21 / yr contract. Surprisingly this looks like win now mode to me. This a sign it is Rivers?

Different? He comes in mid season and teams cant run up the middle and they got push up the middle on pass rush

[JAFF]

It's risky for the reasons RM1369 said - we are giving up a first and paying the guy full market rates. And we don't know him as well as we know our own free agents, so that's a bit of a wild card as well, not to mention the fact that you never know how a guy will react to receiving this kind of money. So I think it's risky for a lot of reasons.

We know hes better than any other DT on the team

[rm1369]

Different? He comes in mid season and teams cant run up the middle and they got push up the middle on pass rush

I guess you are right they are exactly the same. Colts are destined to win the SB this year. Suck’s that Buckner’s career will basically end in 2021 due to injury. But I guess a SB is worth it. Not sure how I could miss how similar the situations are.

[JAFF]

I guess you are right they are exactly the same. Colts are destined to win the SB this year. Suck’s that Buckner’s career will basically end in 2021 due to injury. But I guess a SB is worth it. Not sure how I could miss how similar the situations are.

Or it could just be hes better than anyone in the draft, they have the money, and it fills a need. Booger made the D better. So will this guy.

[Luck4Reich]

Or it could just be hes better than anyone in the draft, they have the money, and it fills a need. Booger made the D better. So will this guy.

I believe that defense gave up more rushing yards per game after the acquisition of Booger. One person made that Defense better....... his name was Bob Sanders.

[rm1369]

Or it could just be hes better than anyone in the draft, they have the money, and it fills a need. Booger made the D better. So will this guy.

Jesus man, I get it you like the trade. But stop with the McFarland trade comparison - there is damn near nothing similar except they both play DT. Other than position it’s completely different players and completely different situations.

As far as making the D better, I don’t think there is anyone on the planet that would disagree with that. It’s simply a matter of degree and cost. I personally don’t hate the trade. I don’t think it was ridiculous, Buckner is a hell of a player. But there is a significant amount of risk with the trade too.

[Luck4Reich]

Not to mention the game the Jags gouged the Colts for 375 yards. Did Booger get hurt on the first play of that game or was he just bad that game. He started and didn’t record a single tackle. Most of the runs were right up the middle.

I’m glad we had Booger who did help our Defense, God knows it needed help.

But if not for Bob Sanders coming back like Superman Returns Colts don’t win that SB.

[JAFF]

Jesus man, I get it you like the trade. But stop with the McFarland trade comparison - there is damn near nothing similar except they both play DT. Other than position it’s completely different players and completely different situations.

As far as making the D better, I don’t think there is anyone on the planet that would disagree with that. It’s simply a matter of degree and cost. I personally don’t hate the trade. I don’t think it was ridiculous, Buckner is a hell of a player. But there is a significant amount of risk with the trade too.

Who cares about $$$. Its not your money. Theres a lot of cap space and Irsay has an extra guitar to sell if it gets tight

[Luck4Reich]

Who cares about $$$. Its not your money. Theres a lot of cap space and Irsay has an extra guitar to sell if it gets tight

They can free up some good space cutting Hoyer and Brisset if they sign a vet and then draft a QB.

[nate505]

I'm bummed that the first day of the draft won't be that exciting for me.

But that's it. This guy is elite, and never seems to miss games.

[Mr. Session]

But there is a significant amount of risk with the trade too.

I hope Ballard and the FO did the math and believe this guy still has upward potential or that he can maintain elite level of play for the better part of the duration of his contract.

Also, It’s not like Buckner chose to come here in FA. I would be off put if I was a west coast kid who negotiated to stay in SF after working my ass off and now I’m going to the fucking Midwest and playing with a team that in large part is a question mark.

Is he the type of guy who is going to buy in regardless? Was he that guy but this changes him? What has Ballard seen outside of the tape that makes this a positive culture fit that matches not only the fiscal value of the contract but the potential value of a first round pick?

[daedge]

I freakin love this trade!!!!! Love it!!!!!

How long have we waited for Ballard to make a big move? Well 3 yrs... SO How long have we waited to have a dominate 3tech?

Exactly. Yet some will still moan about it.

[Workhorse]

Here’s a nice breakdown...

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2020/3/16/21182570/film-room-new-colts-defensive-tackle-deforest-buckner-is-a-superstar

[Chromeburn]

Well, I hate giving up that high of a pick, but I guess we just doubled the number of all-pros on the defense. And he is 26 so should be entering his prime.

Now we just need some better receivers and someone to throw them the ball.

[Spike]

The Colts are my number 1 team, no question about it. The 49ers are my second favorite team because my dad and son are die hard niner fans. So I watch a lot of 49er games, and Buckner is a beast. There will be no one as good as him at #13 in the draft. Great job by Ballard. Absolutely love this!

[YDFL Commish]

Here’s a nice breakdown...

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2020/3/16/21182570/film-room-new-colts-defensive-tackle-deforest-buckner-is-a-superstar

Seems he could line up at DR too. What a nice piece to have. Great job Ballard!

[Chaka]

I read elsewhere that this deal has been in the works since the Super Bowl.

Also, Mike Florio claims to have the contract numbers here:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/03/16/inside-the-deforest-buckner-deal/

If this is true, then it's a five-year deal (I've heard it referenced as a four-year extension elsewhere - presumably in recognition of the fact that he was already under contract for next year prior to the trade). And it looks like the real guarantees are all in the first three years.

By the way, what's with this Mike Florio guy? I think he sucks. Seems to be a Patriot apologist, and always subtly putting down the Colts. After reading the article, you might come away with the impression that Buckner was a leftover player that the 49ers no longer wanted or needed following the Armstead signing - yet the idiot Colts were willing to spend a 1st and sign him to a mega contract.

[rcubed]

By the way, what's with this Mike Florio guy? I think he sucks. Seems to be a Patriot apologist, and always subtly putting down the Colts.


Yes he is a pats homer and has always been snide towards the colts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ironshaft]

First 4 years, Aaron Donald (average per year):

51.0 tackles, 9.75 sacks, 10.5 TFL, 2.25 FF

First 4 years, DeForest Buckner (avrage per year):

65.5 tackles, 7.13 sacks, 5.0 TFL, 0.75 FF

Not quite the impact player Donald was stat-wise. However,

And if you are into the PFF thing, AD first, DB second

Year 1 = 90.2 / 71.6
Year 2 = 93.0 / 82.2
Year 3 = 92.6 / 79.3
Year 4 = 94.0 / 78.8

I have seen a lot of "analysis" saying that DB is trending like AD did in his first 4 years.

We are not getting Aarond Donald.

But, the DeForest Buckner we are getting, especially after reading/watching that Stampede Blue article on him, is pretty darn good.

I agree that we only "hope" that the #13 pick would turn into an impact player. Instead, Ballard went out and got a pretty much "for sure" impact player by trading the pick.

I am beginning to like the trade.

[JAFF]

I hope Ballard and the FO did the math and believe this guy still has upward potential or that he can maintain elite level of play for the better part of the duration of his contract.

Also, It’s not like Buckner chose to come here in FA. I would be off put if I was a west coast kid who negotiated to stay in SF after working my ass off and now I’m going to the fucking Midwest and playing with a team that in large part is a question mark.

Is he the type of guy who is going to buy in regardless? Was he that guy but this changes him? What has Ballard seen outside of the tape that makes this a positive culture fit that matches not only the fiscal value of the contract but the potential value of a first round pick?

They extended his contract, so he won't be too sad

[Racehorse]

Possibly the most stupid statement ever made on this forum!

Well, it IS Dam...

[Racehorse]

Here’s a nice breakdown...

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2020/3/16/21182570/film-room-new-colts-defensive-tackle-deforest-buckner-is-a-superstar

Dude beats quite a few double teams in the clips there.

[Racehorse]

They extended his contract, so he won't be too sad

Also, it said that he was involved in the decision on a sign and trade. Looks like he bought in on the idea.

[albany ed]

This tells me that Ballard wants to win right now. That won't happen if Bressett is our QB, so he's gonna sign someone.

[Luck4Reich]

This tells me that Ballard wants to win right now. That won't happen if Bressett is our QB, so he's gonna sign someone.

My thought as well.

[rm1369]

I definitely like what I’ve seen on the contract terms. Very team friendly - front loaded with no huge prorated signing bonus that will come back to bite them down the road.

Seen this somewhere - Ballard has turned 4 first round picks into:

Malik Hooker
Quenton Nelson
Brandon Smith
Kemoko Turay
Rock Ya-Sin
Ben Banogu
Marvell Tell
Deforest Buckner
34th pick in 2020

I’ve definitely had my complaints, but I’d say that’s pretty good return. Just need a good QB now.

[Chromeburn]

First 4 years, Aaron Donald (average per year):

51.0 tackles, 9.75 sacks, 10.5 TFL, 2.25 FF

First 4 years, DeForest Buckner (avrage per year):

65.5 tackles, 7.13 sacks, 5.0 TFL, 0.75 FF

Not quite the impact player Donald was stat-wise. However,

And if you are into the PFF thing, AD first, DB second

Year 1 = 90.2 / 71.6
Year 2 = 93.0 / 82.2
Year 3 = 92.6 / 79.3
Year 4 = 94.0 / 78.8

I have seen a lot of "analysis" saying that DB is trending like AD did in his first 4 years.

We are not getting Aarond Donald.

But, the DeForest Buckner we are getting, especially after reading/watching that Stampede Blue article on him, is pretty darn good.

I agree that we only "hope" that the #13 pick would turn into an impact player. Instead, Ballard went out and got a pretty much "for sure" impact player by trading the pick.

I am beginning to like the trade.

Aaron Donald went 13 overall. But I’m warming to the idea we got a young all-pro at a position of need for 13.

[Chromeburn]

I definitely like what I’ve seen on the contract terms. Very team friendly - front loaded with no huge prorated signing bonus that will come back to bite them down the road.

Seen this somewhere - Ballard has turned 4 first round picks into:

Malik Hooker
Quenton Nelson
Brandon Smith
Kemoko Turay
Rock Ya-Sin
Ben Banogu
Marvell Tell
Deforest Buckner
34th pick in 2020

I’ve definitely had my complaints, but I’d say that’s pretty good return. Just need a good QB now.

Probably need to draft one also. Can’t imagine they sign a guy and keep Hoyer and Brisset around. Will probably draft a project I imagine. Maybe one next year.

[rm1369]

Probably need to draft one also. Can’t imagine they sign a guy and keep Hoyer and Brisset around. Will probably draft a project I imagine. Maybe one next year.

My best guess - they sign Rivers, keep JB, draft Anthony Gordon.

[Brylok]

I've had a night to sleep on it and I still love the trade! Can't wait to see Buckner in action!

[Puck]

Yep. I’m still excited

[smitty46953]

I've had a night to sleep on it and I still love the trade! Can't wait to see Buckner in action!

Same here great trade for both teams. Can you imagine how many tackles Leonard and Walker will get now with Buckner demanding a double team? :eek:

[Dam8610]

First 4 years, Aaron Donald (average per year):

51.0 tackles, 9.75 sacks, 10.5 TFL, 2.25 FF

First 4 years, DeForest Buckner (avrage per year):

65.5 tackles, 7.13 sacks, 5.0 TFL, 0.75 FF

Not quite the impact player Donald was stat-wise. However,

And if you are into the PFF thing, AD first, DB second

Year 1 = 90.2 / 71.6
Year 2 = 93.0 / 82.2
Year 3 = 92.6 / 79.3
Year 4 = 94.0 / 78.8

I have seen a lot of "analysis" saying that DB is trending like AD did in his first 4 years.

We are not getting Aarond Donald.

But, the DeForest Buckner we are getting, especially after reading/watching that Stampede Blue article on him, is pretty darn good.

I agree that we only "hope" that the #13 pick would turn into an impact player. Instead, Ballard went out and got a pretty much "for sure" impact player by trading the pick.

I am beginning to like the trade.

Also, Donald's first 4 seasons were 23-26. Buckner is entering his age 26 season.

[rcubed]

Nice little breakdown of the contract

https://www.stampedeblue.com/2020/3/17/21182934/breaking-down-deforest-buckners-new-deal

[HoosierinFL]

Not worried about the contract, we have so much cap space that this does not affect anything. We can still sign our own as needed, and still have more than plenty of room to sign a handful of moderately priced free agents and even one more big price FA (like a QB) if needed.

[rm1369]

Not worried about the contract, we have so much cap space that this does not affect anything. We can still sign our own as needed, and still have more than plenty of room to sign a handful of moderately priced free agents and even one more big price FA (like a QB) if needed.

The concern wouldn’t be for the this year or next. It would be for 2-3 years from now as other guys contracts come up. Guys are going to want paid - especially if the team starts winning. That’s why the structure of the contract matters. And they are doing it right. Front loading and not using signing bonuses that are spread out over the life of the contract. When they need to move on from someone they will pay little penalty to do it. Sure it doesn’t matter much now, but it will.

[Brylok]

Same here great trade for both teams. Can you imagine how many tackles Leonard and Walker will get now with Buckner demanding a double team? :eek:

Yep and Houston will probably be more productive as well. DBs should get a few more interceptions. Love. It.

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

Same here great trade for both teams. Can you imagine how many tackles Leonard and Walker will get now with Buckner demanding a double team? :eek:

Saw this stat about double teams: :cool:


Most double teams faced as a pass rusher since 2016:

Kenny Clark - 221
Maliek Collins - 196
Aaron Donald - 195
DeForest Buckner - 194

[BlueStampede]

I have a chubby!

[JAFF]

TMI

A big bag of ice will cure that.

[Chromeburn]

TMI

A big bag of ice will cure that.

Or a woman.

[Chromeburn]

So I heard on the radio. I guess some of the reasoning behind trading the pick for a veteran is corona virus. The Colts think group events will be canceled for awhile and that this will put rookies at a disadvantage. They will be behind on most things all year. So going with a young vet will help mitigate that. Can't say I can argue with that thinking.

[JAFF]

Or a woman.

Love an optimist

[JAFF]

So I heard on the radio. I guess some of the reasoning behind trading the pick for a veteran is corona virus. The Colts think group events will be canceled for awhile and that this will put rookies at a disadvantage. They will be behind on most things all year. So going with a young vet will help mitigate that. Can't say I can argue with that thinking.

Dumbest thing. Its football, not brain surgery

[Workhorse]

Dumbest thing. Its football, not brain surgery

It’s definitely going to have an impact. Probably no OTAs and possibly a shorter training camp. It’s not enough of a reason to make a trade, but it’s a reason to list with all the other reasons to possibly make a trade.

[rm1369]

So I heard on the radio. I guess some of the reasoning behind trading the pick for a veteran is corona virus. The Colts think group events will be canceled for awhile and that this will put rookies at a disadvantage. They will be behind on most things all year. So going with a young vet will help mitigate that. Can't say I can argue with that thinking.

I can understand it being an added benefit, but to factor it into the actual decision would be stupid. I certainly hope that wasn’t an actual part of their reasoning.

[JAFF]

It’s definitely going to have an impact. Probably no OTAs and possibly a shorter training camp. It’s not enough of a reason to make a trade, but it’s a reason to list with all the other reasons to possibly make a trade.

These guys have been playing football since they were in middle school. And thinking that college kids are amateurs doesn’t make them less football players. Everybody has the same disadvantage a short in season. It’s a crapshoot but these guys except for rivers I’m going to have a long contract

[Chromeburn]

I can understand it being an added benefit, but to factor it into the actual decision would be stupid. I certainly hope that wasn’t an actual part of their reasoning.

They said it was. The Colts believe they are close to winning a SB. They thought a vet could hit the ground running better than a rookie.

[Luck4Reich]

They said it was. The Colts believe they are close to winning a SB. They thought a vet could hit the ground running better than a rookie.

Makes sense. An established disruptive beast in Buckner or a rookie that has yet to prove he is ready for the NFL.

Ballard isn’t done adding pieces... I’m gonna enjoy the ride.

[rm1369]

They said it was. The Colts believe they are close to winning a SB. They thought a vet could hit the ground running better than a rookie.

I guess it makes more sense if you believe this is your year. I’m not sure I agree. They must have more confidence in Rivers than I do. May also mean they aren’t done in Free Agency. Would also explain the rumored interest in Berry. Vet presence, can get up to speed quickly.

[Luck4Reich]

Out of the 32 ranked offensive lines the Chargers ranked 29th. Last year. The Colts ranked 3rd.

I like our chances that Rivers will perform well behind the Colts line compared to the bad one he had.

[Ironshaft]

Out of the 32 ranked offensive lines the Chargers ranked 29th. Last year. The Colts ranked 3rd.

I like our chances that Rivers will perform well behind the Colts line compared to the bad one he had.
In addition:

IND = 133.1 ypg rushing = 07th in NFL

LAC = 090.8 ypg rushing = 28th in NFL

If we can add:
- Veteran FA wide receiver
- Rookie wide receiver picked in 2nd or 3rd round
- Rookie tight end picked in the middle rounds
- Quality offensive line depth

Then I think that Rivers will have the line, running game and receiving options to do some real damage in 2020.

And none of that precludes us from continuing to add pieces to the defense via free agency (come on D.J. Reader! Come to Indy!), another 2 picks in the 2nd / 3rd rounds and depth pieces with lower round picks.

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

come on D.J. Reader! Come to Indy!


Rapoport tweeted yesterday that DJ Reader agreed to terms with Cincinnati

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1240014796948484097

#Texans defensive tackle DJ Reader is expected to land with the #Bengals on a 4-year, $53M deal, source said. Cincy is in the free agent mix.

[Brylok]

In addition:

IND = 133.1 ypg rushing = 07th in NFL

LAC = 090.8 ypg rushing = 28th in NFL

...
It doesn't seem like that long ago the Colts would go weeks/months without rushing for 100 yards/game. The team is definitely improving.

[Chromeburn]

These guys have been playing football since they were in middle school. And thinking that college kids are amateurs doesn’t make them less football players. Everybody has the same disadvantage a short in season. It’s a crapshoot but these guys except for rivers I’m going to have a long contract

Its not that simple. Gil Brandt said going from college to the pros is like going from 3rd grade to MIT grad school.

[Chromeburn]

Rapoport tweeted yesterday that DJ Reader agreed to terms with Cincinnati

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1240014796948484097

We can get a 1-tech in the draft. A guy like Raekwon Davis will be around.

[Racehorse]

It doesn't seem like that long ago the Colts would go weeks/months without rushing for 100 yards/game. The team is definitely improving.

Seems more like they would go entire seasons.

[Brylok]

Seems more like they would go entire seasons.

I'm too lazy to look it up but I think maybe they did. Running game was dreadful mainly because of the line. McGlynn and Satelle days... smh

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

https://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/1240410183865679878

..... New Colts DL DeForest Buckner:

"Just excited to be an Indianapolis Colt ... you can see the team that Chris Ballard's put together over the years. Lot of young talent, lot of good guys, being an addition — it's kind of a win-now mentality."

https://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/1240411283167621120

Early impression from DeForest Buckner: He's **all in** with the Colts — and can't wait to get to Indy and get to work.

Ballard told him he'd be a key piece, and Buckner loved hearing that.


https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/status/1240410415592546304

Buckner: "Obviously, I knew this was a possibility for a couple of days. It's just the nature of the business."

https://twitter.com/zkeefer/status/1240411687037140995

Buckner singles out two defensive players he's pumped to play with: Justin Houston and Darius Leonard. "When you watch the Colts' tape, you see that guy flying around everywhere," he said of Leonard.

https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/status/1240412011927875585

Buckner: "I practice the way I want to play in the game, even if it'll piss some people off."

[Luck4Reich]

Cant wait to watch this Defense!

[Discflinger]

Huh?

[Chaka]

If you're curious how the 49ers fans view this trade, below is a thread from a 49ers forum that's kind of fun to read. Its a very long thread beginning when Buckner was initially drafted, but my link should go right to the page (page 406) where the trade was announced:

https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page406/

The thread goes on and on (and on), but the gist of it is essentially "WTF". Good reading for the offseason.

[Luck4Reich]

If you're curious how the 49ers fans view this trade, below is a thread from a 49ers forum that's kind of fun to read. Its a very long thread beginning when Buckner was initially drafted, but my link should go right to the page (page 406) where the trade was announced:

https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page406/

The thread goes on and on (and on), but the gist of it is essentially "WTF". Good reading for the offseason.

Literally every 49er fan hated to see this guy go it seems.

[Luck4Reich]

Definitely a good read..... many saying WTF....lol

Or rather have kept Buckner than Armstead.... love it!!

[Racehorse]

If you're curious how the 49ers fans view this trade, below is a thread from a 49ers forum that's kind of fun to read. Its a very long thread beginning when Buckner was initially drafted, but my link should go right to the page (page 406) where the trade was announced:

https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page406/

The thread goes on and on (and on), but the gist of it is essentially "WTF". Good reading for the offseason.

Seems they feel robbed. Makes me all the happier.

[YDFL Commish]

I don't think that he will be getting Justin Houston's 99 anytime soon.

[Brylok]

If you're curious how the 49ers fans view this trade, below is a thread from a 49ers forum that's kind of fun to read. Its a very long thread beginning when Buckner was initially drafted, but my link should go right to the page (page 406) where the trade was announced:

It's kind of amazing how so many people think $21M is too much to pay a young, pro bowl quality DT. Do they not understand that the salary cap is going to keep rising every year? Quality, starting QBs will be making $30M+ soon. It's not 2010 anymore. I still love that trade!

[Luck4Reich]

It's kind of amazing how so many people think $21M is too much to pay a young, pro bowl quality DT. Do they not understand that the salary cap is going to keep rising every year? Quality, starting QBs will be making $30M+ soon. It's not 2010 anymore. I still love that trade!

Well they just paid a guy in Armstead that has basically 1 great season with the other 4 years just ok. We got a guy that has been consistently disruptive.

Probably why many 49er fans would rather have kept Buckner over Armstead.

Time will tell. I think we are gonna look back and see that 21 million per well spent.:cool:

[Brylok]

Well they just paid a guy in Armstead that has basically 1 great season with the other 4 years just ok. We got a guy that has been consistently disruptive.

Probably why many 49er fans would rather have kept Buckner over Armstead.

Time will tell. I think we are gonna look back and see that 21 million per well spent.:cool:

I read several posts from SF fans calling Buckner a franchise player. I love the sound of that!

[Pez]

Here's 18 mins of Deforest Buckner highlights...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCVet2SDLU4&t=353s

Buckner and Houston are going to be deadly.

[Racehorse]

Here's 18 mins of Deforest Buckner highlights...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCVet2SDLU4&t=353s

Buckner and Houston are going to be deadly.

I think the last time I was this excite about a trade was when Dickerson came to Indianapolis.

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

I don't think that he will be getting Justin Houston's 99 anytime soon.


Buckner is now 99.

Houston changed his number to 50 (his number was 50 with KC)


Few other number updates:

Rivers is 17.
Ya-Sin is 26.
Rhodes is 27.
Carrie is 38.
Walker is 54.
Day is 91.


https://twitter.com/Colts/status/1247301881434714113

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

Albert Breer of Sports Illustrated wrote a column about the 49er's off season including the decision to trade Buckner.


You can read the entire article via the link and I have excerpted a few quotes below:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/05/04/john-lynch-san-francisco-49ers-offseason-reload?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=themmqb&utm_medium=social

The Niners had kept Armstead and Buckner, their 2015 and ’16 first-round picks, together for as long as they were able to. A cap crunch loomed, as more big deals had to be accounted for on the horizon, for young stars like George Kittle and Bosa. Armstead had just played out the fifth-year option on a rookie deal, while Buckner was reaching his.

“We knew the Buckner domino was going to be the big one,” Lynch said.

Segal (Buckner's agent) told the Niners’ brass that the average per year on any new deal would have to start with a “2.” Soon, it was agreed that the Niners wouldn’t be able to meet Buckner’s ask.

Lynch: "We looked at every different way it could work. Our motivation certainly wasn’t getting rid of Buckner, because he’s one of our best players, and one of our best people. He embodies 49er way.”


Lynch told Segal, "Buck’s earned it, so if you believe you can get that number, go get it. But you better bring back a first-round pick." With permission to seek a deal granted, Segal found Buckner’s money, and Lynch’s pick, faster than anyone anticipated.

“Not only did he bring back a first-round pick, he brought back the 13th pick,” Lynch said. “And then, it’s like, ‘Whoa, I didn’t think he’d do that.’ By that point, you start looking at how we can keep our team together. And I guess a long story short, it’s not something we wanted to do, but at a certain point, we felt like that was the best decision.”


Lynch: "So when you profess to guys, Hey, you do the things we ask, we’re gonna take care of you, and then a guy like DeForest does everything, and you can’t take care of him, that’s difficult."

[Colts And Orioles]

o


Bill Polian: Colts Have Added Most Important Person on Defense in DeForest Buckner

(By Kevin Bowen)

https://www.1075thefan.com/featured/bill-polian-colts-have-added-most-important-person-on-defense-in-deforest-buckner/

o

[Colts And Orioles]

o


Bill Polian: Colts Have Added Most Important Person on Defense in DeForest Buckner

(By Kevin Bowen)

https://www.1075thefan.com/featured/bill-polian-colts-have-added-most-important-person-on-defense-in-deforest-buckner/

o
o


INDIANAPOLIS – To become a true Super Bowl team, Bill Polian knew his defense needed an upgrade at that position.

Fittingly, some 14 years later, in the same role Polian was in for the Colts, Chris Ballard was sold on making a seismic trade, once he saw that position (and that player) impact the Super Bowl.

For Polian, it was giving away a second-round pick during a 2006 in-season trade for defensive tackle Booger McFarland.

For Ballard, it was sending the No. 13 overall pick this past March to the 49ers for defensive tackle DeForest Buckner.

Nearly a decade and a half span the two trades, but the value for that position, in virtually the same Tampa 2 defense, remains.

“The most important person in the defense, the key player is the 3-technique, the guy who is closest to the ball,” Polian, the Hall of Famer and former Colts President, explains. “He does the most disrupting. And he’s the guy who triggers the pass rush.

“We know, based on experience we’ve had with both Peyton (Manning) and (Tom) Brady, (Jim) Kelly and (Dan) Marino, almost any quarterback, but all the elite ones, hate people under their legs, hate people who can rush up the middle. The only people who have had success against Brady over time are those who can rush up the middle. If you can put pressure from the inside in the passing game, then the (Dwight) Freeney’s and (Robert) Mathis’ can really go to work.

“The fact that Buckner is an elite pass rusher from the inside, and also an elite run player gives you the opportunity for a really key defense. We did not get to a Super Bowl level until we got Bogger McFarland. And that’s on me. I didn’t do a good enough job of getting someone like that. Chris Ballard has learned that lesson and went out and got Buckner and that’s going to be huge for that defense.”

As Ballard watched Buckner in Super Bowl LIV, the GM fell more and more in love.

-It was the impactful sacks (1.5 for Buckner in the game) Buckner had against Patrick Mahomes.

-It was the constant high-level of effort, seeing a 6-7, 300-pounder stay alive in plays all over the field.

-It was Buckner still delivering pressure in the 4th quarter, showing off rare stamina for a defensive tackle.

When the Colts made the trade for Buckner, Ballard wanted everyone to go watch how he played in the Super Bowl.

“All you have to do was put on the Super Bowl,” Ballard said. “The great players produce in the great games. Just watch the Super Bowl, that guy played his ass off. And he was disruptive the entire game.”

Obviously, Ballard hopes Buckner (who is a far more consistent and disruptive player than McFarland was) can help the Colts get to the point where Polian and company got to more than a decade ago.

Jim Irsay certainly has fond memories of those days, and that 2006 season, in which the defense did plenty of heavy lifting in capturing Super Bowl LI.

The Owner is quite happy to have a difference maker back at such a critical position.

“He’s special,” Irsay said of Buckner, when speaking to Colts.com earlier this offseason. “The long arms, the knee bend, to be 6-7, to play inside like that is remarkable. He’s never on the ground, he’s so sudden. Even though he’s 6-7, he’s just really, really, really a remarkable athlete, and quite frankly, I use this this word carefully ...... but I just can’t even think of anyone that was like him. To be that size and to play inside like that, I mean, you have to realize what kind of athlete you have to be. And he gets double teamed and he still makes plays, because he’s never on the ground and he never quits."

“He’s special, and he’s a special leader.”

o

[Colts And Orioles]

o


DeForest Buckner Proves He Belongs in Defensive Player of the Year Conversation

(By Joel A. Erickson)

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2020/12/20/colts-vs-texans-dt-deforest-buckner-should-defensive-player-year/3924184001/

o

[Chaka]

o


DeForest Buckner Proves He Belongs in Defensive Player of the Year Conversation

(By Joel A. Erickson)

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2020/12/20/colts-vs-texans-dt-deforest-buckner-should-defensive-player-year/3924184001/

o

Thanks for the post. If you want some further real-world confirmation of the success of this trade, check out the 49ers fanboards to read some of their whining. Here are a few quick examples if you're curious:

Harsh reminder not to trade young, blue chip players with great intangibles unless you're getting a godfather offer

https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page471/

He is a great player will root for him. but no longer on the niners.
Time to move on guys.
Holding on like a ex girlfriend

https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/194343-impact-not-having-buckner/page5/search=buckner

Seems like he is playing better. Lo. The niners are stuck with kinlaw and no cap space.

https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page471/

So I guess it's just a coincidence that Buckner has been on two great defenses?

https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page470/

[TheMugwump]

o


DeForest Buckner Proves He Belongs in Defensive Player of the Year Conversation

(By Joel A. Erickson)

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2020/12/20/colts-vs-texans-dt-deforest-buckner-should-defensive-player-year/3924184001/

o

But apparently not the Pro Bowl? That's a snub if there ever was one.

[nate505]

I know I shouldn't give a fuck about pro bowl selections...but how the fuck did Buckner not make it.

[Hoopsdoc]

Thanks for the post. If you want some further real-world confirmation of the success of this trade, check out the 49ers fanboards to read some of their whining. Here are a few quick examples if you're curious:


https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page471/


https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/194343-impact-not-having-buckner/page5/search=buckner


https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page471/


https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl/185803-deforest-buckner-traded-colts/page470/

Lol, some of the are S-A-L-T-Y. I don’t blame them.

You just don’t trade guys like Buckner. You find a way to keep them.

[Chromeburn]

I know I shouldn't give a fuck about pro bowl selections...but how the fuck did Buckner not make it.

Small market bs as usual. Guy was robbed.

[Chromeburn]

Lol, some of the are S-A-L-T-Y. I don’t blame them.

You just don’t trade guys like Buckner. You find a way to keep them.

Never understood why they signed Armstead and not Buckner.

[JAFF]

I hope he is pissed off until the colts win the super bowl

[Colts And Orioles]

I know that I shouldn't give a fuck about Pro Bowl selections ...... but how the fuck did Buckner not make it ???












Small-market bullshit, as usual. The guy was robbed.





o


in 8 seasons between 2012 and 2019, Russell Wilson has never received a single vote for MVP ...... not one single vote.



Russell Wilson Reacts to the Fact that He's Never Received a Single MVP Vote in his 8-Year Career

(By John Breech)

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/russell-wilson-reacts-to-the-fact-that-hes-never-received-a-single-mvp-vote-in-his-eight-year-career/

o

[Hoopsdoc]

Never understood why they signed Armstead and not Buckner.

I can actually see the logic in it from a pure money ball perspective. They needed space to resign Kittle, Warner, etc and were up against the cap. Buckner wanted at least 20 million per. Armstead was a little cheaper and they talked themselves into the notion that they could make up that difference with their stacked d line.

What they didn’t calculate was the type of player Defo is. You don’t replace incredibly durable, all pro, defensive captains like him, especially when he’s only 25.

The fact that a guy like Ballard jumped on that deal should have clued them in that it was a bad one.

[Chromeburn]

o


in 8 seasons between 2012 and 2019, Russell Wilson has never received a single vote for MVP ...... not one single vote.



Russell Wilson Reacts to the Fact that He's Never Received a Single MVP Vote in his 8-Year Career

(By John Breech)

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/russell-wilson-reacts-to-the-fact-that-hes-never-received-a-single-mvp-vote-in-his-eight-year-career/

o

West coast bias. They play too late for the east coast to watch games. It’s apparent in college sports too.

[Chromeburn]

I can actually see the logic in it from a pure money ball perspective. They needed space to resign Kittle, Warner, etc and were up against the cap. Buckner wanted at least 20 million per. Armstead was a little cheaper and they talked themselves into the notion that they could make up that difference with their stacked d line.

What they didn’t calculate was the type of player Defo is. You don’t replace incredibly durable, all pro, defensive captains like him, especially when he’s only 25.

The fact that a guy like Ballard jumped on that deal should have clued them in that it was a bad one.

Armstead is two years older too. Kim law looks like he is going to be pretty good though. But like most dline, might take a couple years.

I’m thinking scenarios. They were losing one of them. I wonder if they offered Armstead and we said no. So the 49ers thought we can keep Buckner, or we can keep Armstead and the 13 pick.

[Dam8610]

Armstead is two years older too. Kim law looks like he is going to be pretty good though. But like most dline, might take a couple years.

I’m thinking scenarios. They were losing one of them. I wonder if they offered Armstead and we said no. So the 49ers thought we can keep Buckner, or we can keep Armstead and the 13 pick.

I'm sure that's exactly what they were thinking. That's smart team building. Getting that pick allowed them to essentially draft his replacement in Kinlaw (who the Colts probably would've taken at 13 had they retained the pick) and still keep most of their group together, including the most talented of the bunch in Bosa. The Colts ended up with a great deal out of this, but I don't think the 49ers "lost" this trade. They got what they needed out of it.

[Chaka]

I’m thinking scenarios. They were losing one of them. I wonder if they offered Armstead and we said no. So the 49ers thought we can keep Buckner, or we can keep Armstead and the 13 pick.

There are a few articles detailing the circumstances behind the trade, but from what I understand the 49ers had no intention of keeping Buckner after his 5th year option played out. This was not about Buckner's ability, but rather that the 49ers has simply resigned themselves to the fact that they could not pay Buckner's price. Here's some more info:

https://horseshoeheroes.com/2020/11/11/colts-deforest-buckner-trade-complicated/

[Chromeburn]

I'm sure that's exactly what they were thinking. That's smart team building. Getting that pick allowed them to essentially draft his replacement in Kinlaw (who the Colts probably would've taken at 13 had they retained the pick) and still keep most of their group together, including the most talented of the bunch in Bosa. The Colts ended up with a great deal out of this, but I don't think the 49ers "lost" this trade. They got what they needed out of it.

There are a few articles detailing the circumstances behind the trade, but from what I understand the 49ers had no intention of keeping Buckner after his 5th year option played out. This was not about Buckner's ability, but rather that the 49ers has simply resigned themselves to the fact that they could not pay Buckner's price. Here's some more info:

https://horseshoeheroes.com/2020/11/11/colts-deforest-buckner-trade-complicated/

Seems they looked into the trade for both and the market for Armstead was a 2nd rounder and Buckner was a 1st rounder. Also, they wanted to save 4 million a year which seemed to be the difference in contracts. Armstead is more versatile as well.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/why-49ers-decided-trade-deforest-buckner-re-sign-arik-armstead

I would have paid the 4 million and taken a second-rounder. Armstead has never really impressed me. But that's my opinion. Glad they made the trade. although I think Kinlaw would have worked out for us as well, just taken longer till he matured.

[YDFL Commish]

I'm sure that's exactly what they were thinking. That's smart team building. Getting that pick allowed them to essentially draft his replacement in Kinlaw (who the Colts probably would've taken at 13 had they retained the pick) and still keep most of their group together, including the most talented of the bunch in Bosa. The Colts ended up with a great deal out of this, but I don't think the 49ers "lost" this trade. They got what they needed out of it.

I think that anytime you are trading proven vs unproven the risk is too high to take.

[Dam8610]

I think that anytime you are trading proven vs unproven the risk is too high to take.

In a situation with unlimited cap space, absolutely. The cap forces teams to take calculated risks that they otherwise wouldn't have to take. For example, can Javon Kinlaw provide 70-80% of DeForest Buckner's production at 15-20% of the cap hit?

[Hoopsdoc]

In a situation with unlimited cap space, absolutely. The cap forces teams to take calculated risks that they otherwise wouldn't have to take. For example, can Javon Kinlaw provide 70-80% of DeForest Buckner's production at 15-20% of the cap hit?

People matter though. There’s more to consider than just the production. Especially with a guy like Buckner, who is a cornerstone guy that they haven’t been able to replace.

[Dam8610]

People matter though. There’s more to consider than just the production. Especially with a guy like Buckner, who is a cornerstone guy that they haven’t been able to replace.

If you don't have the cap room, you don't have the cap room. Buckner was going to get $20m+/year on his next deal, they are going to have to pay Bosa and Kittle in a couple years, and unlike the Colts, they're not swimming in cap room. They didn't have the space to retain him and get the rest of their key players locked up. You can make a case that it may have been smarter to let Armstead go, but basically the question becomes what's better between Armstead + Kinlaw or Buckner. They may end up being wrong, but there's logic to picking Armstead + Kinlaw.

[Hoopsdoc]

If you don't have the cap room, you don't have the cap room. Buckner was going to get $20m+/year on his next deal, they are going to have to pay Bosa and Kittle in a couple years, and unlike the Colts, they're not swimming in cap room. They didn't have the space to retain him and get the rest of their key players locked up. You can make a case that it may have been smarter to let Armstead go, but basically the question becomes what's better between Armstead + Kinlaw or Buckner. They may end up being wrong, but there's logic to picking Armstead + Kinlaw.

They’re paying Armstead 17 million per year. If you compare the playing careers of Armstead and Buckner, there’s a very good argument that Buckner is a better value at 21 million. Especially when you consider Armsteads injury history.

If they had wanted to make it work, they could have. It wasn’t that they absolutely just couldn’t afford Buckner.

Besides, they had no way of knowing if Kinlaw was even gonna be there at 13.

They got a little to smart for their own good and they’re paying for it now.

[Chaka]

They’re paying Armstead 17 million per year. If you compare the playing careers of Armstead and Buckner, there’s a very good argument that Buckner is a better value at 21 million. Especially when you consider Armsteads injury history.

If they had wanted to make it work, they could have. It wasn’t that they absolutely just couldn’t afford Buckner.

Besides, they had no way of knowing if Kinlaw was even gonna be there at 13.

They got a little to smart for their own good and they’re paying for it now.

They’re paying Armstead 17 million per year. If you compare the playing careers of Armstead and Buckner, there’s a very good argument that Buckner is a better value at 21 million. Especially when you consider Armsteads injury history.

If they had wanted to make it work, they could have. It wasn’t that they absolutely just couldn’t afford Buckner.

Besides, they had no way of knowing if Kinlaw was even gonna be there at 13.

They got a little to smart for their own good and they’re paying for it now.

Here's the thing though - it really wasn't as straightforward at $17M vs. $21M. The devil is always in the details. Take a look as the structure of these guys' respective contracts:

Armstead:
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/arik-armstead-16741/

Buckner:
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/deforest-buckner-18955/

Bucker's contract is frontloaded, a structure which benefits Buckner (he gets lots more money upfront) but would absolutely not have worked for the 49ers, who were already up against the cap and had the personnel in place to make another Super Bowl run.

Armstead's contract, by comparison, is backloaded - he only counts $6M against the cap in 2020 vs. $23.3M for Buckner. He also required a much smaller initial "real" guarantee ($26.65M vs. Buckner's $39.2M), and they've pushed of much of the cap consequences of his deal to later years.

Buckner's contract required a much greater upfront commitment from the Colts, and is fairly straightforward without much financial engineering for the benefit of the team. He gets all of his "real" guarantees in the first two years (2020-2021). After that it looks like he's on a simple year-to-year salary/roster bonus, and the team could theoretically move on from him with few consequences from 2022 and beyond. This gives the Colts a lot of flexibility to restructure if necessary for cap reasons at that time, as I expect we'll be dealing with cap issues in the not-too-distant-future.

So, bottom line, Armstead's deal is much cheaper in real dollars and, perhaps most importantly for the 49ers, gives them $17M in cap relief in 2020 relative to Buckner's deal - much more than the $4M difference referenced in most media reports. He is also cheaper in 2021 cap-wise ($12.5M vs. Buckner's $17M). However, Buckner's deal - while more expensive - is a lot easier to get out of after 2021, and gives the Colts more flexibility in later years. The 49ers deal with Armstead is a good example of buying something on a credit card, as the deal will impact the 49ers cap after 2021 no matter what, even if he isn't on the team anymore. Buckner's won't.

(Side note - this is also an example of how not burning through available cap space can provide you with the ability to pull off a deal that perhaps very few other teams could have.)

[jasperhobbs]

They’re paying Armstead 17 million per year. If you compare the playing careers of Armstead and Buckner, there’s a very good argument that Buckner is a better value at 21 million. Especially when you consider Armsteads injury history.

If they had wanted to make it work, they could have. It wasn’t that they absolutely just couldn’t afford Buckner.

Besides, they had no way of knowing if Kinlaw was even gonna be there at 13.

They got a little to smart for their own good and they’re paying for it now.

Kinlaw has some knee issues that scared some teams away from drafting him. So far he looks like a beast.

[Hoopsdoc]

Here's the thing though - it really wasn't as straightforward at $17M vs. $21M. The devil is always in the details. Take a look as the structure of these guys' respective contracts:

Armstead:
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/arik-armstead-16741/

Buckner:
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/deforest-buckner-18955/

Bucker's contract is frontloaded, a structure which benefits Buckner (he gets lots more money upfront) but would absolutely not have worked for the 49ers, who were already up against the cap and had the personnel in place to make another Super Bowl run.

Armstead's contract, by comparison, is backloaded - he only counts $6M against the cap in 2020 vs. $23.3M for Buckner. He also required a much smaller initial "real" guarantee ($26.65M vs. Buckner's $39.2M), and they've pushed of much of the cap consequences of his deal to later years.

Buckner's contract required a much greater upfront commitment from the Colts, and is fairly straightforward without much financial engineering for the benefit of the team. He gets all of his "real" guarantees in the first two years (2020-2021). After that it looks like he's on a simple year-to-year salary/roster bonus, and the team could theoretically move on from him with few consequences from 2022 and beyond. This gives the Colts a lot of flexibility to restructure if necessary for cap reasons at that time, as I expect we'll be dealing with cap issues in the not-too-distant-future.

So, bottom line, Armstead's deal is much cheaper in real dollars and, perhaps most importantly for the 49ers, gives them $17M in cap relief in 2020 relative to Buckner's deal - much more than the $4M difference referenced in most media reports. He is also cheaper in 2021 cap-wise ($12.5M vs. Buckner's $17M). However, Buckner's deal - while more expensive - is a lot easier to get out of after 2021, and gives the Colts more flexibility in later years. The 49ers deal with Armstead is a good example of buying something on a credit card, as the deal will impact the 49ers cap after 2021 no matter what, even if he isn't on the team anymore. Buckner's won't.

(Side note - this is also an example of how not burning through available cap space can provide you with the ability to pull off a deal that perhaps very few other teams could have.)
Thanks for the breakdown. And you may well be correct.

But Buckner himself has made it very clear that he never wanted or expected to leave San Francisco. I don’t know for sure if there were any negotiations beyond Buckners original proposal, but my hunch is they could have worked out a similar deal with him if they wanted too.

I feel like like John Lynch has been regretting that deal since about week 2. I know most 9’er fans have.

[Chromeburn]

Kinlaw has some knee issues that scared some teams away from drafting him. So far he looks like a beast.

This is true. Huge gamble to take a DL with a possible knee issue. I wonder what our defense would look like if we had Sweat and Kinlaw instead on it.

[Colts And Orioles]

o


(vs. JAGUARS, 1/03)


Buckner was credited with 4 tackles (3 solo), 2 sacks, and 1 pass deflected.

o

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

Kinlaw has some knee issues that scared some teams away from drafting him. So far he looks like a beast.

This is true. Huge gamble to take a DL with a possible knee issue. I wonder what our defense would look like if we had Sweat and Kinlaw instead on it.


Few years later of hindsight....

Really glad Ballard traded the pick for Buckner and didn't draft Kinlaw.

Kinlaw only played in 4 games his second year in the NFL (knee issues) and only 6 games this past year (knee issues again).

For his 3 year career - he has tallied 1.5 sacks.

Rumors are the 49'ers are not going to exercise his fifth year option.


https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rumors-javon-kinlaw-fifth-year-option-unlikely-be-picked-49ers



After another injury-riddled campaign paired with mixed results on the field when healthy, Kinlaw's long-term future in San Francisco reportedly is in jeopardy.

The Athletic's Matt Barrows and David Lombardi wrote last week the 49ers are "unlikely" to pick up the fifth-year option on Kinlaw's rookie contract.

That would mean next season -- Kinlaw's fourth in the league since being selected No. 14 overall by the 49ers in the 2020 NFL Draft -- would be the last on his rookie contract. Kinlaw would be an unrestricted free agent next offseason.

NFL teams have until the May 1 deadline to decide whether or not to exercise fifth-year options on first-round picks from the 2020 draft class.

Kinlaw showed flashes of his first-round potential across 14 games as a rookie, but he missed all but four games in 2021 after undergoing season-ending knee surgery in October.

Those knee issues lingered into his third campaign. Kinlaw was sidelined for 11 contests from October to December this past season before making his return in Week 16 against the Washington Commanders. He logged nine tackles, one tackle for loss and no sacks or quarterback hits over the final three regular-season games and three playoff tilts.

The 49ers declining Kinlaw's fifth-year option wouldn't guarantee the defensive tackle won't be in the Bay Area past the 2023 NFL season. For example, the New York Giants declined quarterback Daniel Jones' fifth-year option last spring, only to watch him have a breakout year. Now, the Giants are expected to sign Jones to a long-term contract this offseason.

Kinlaw still has much to prove entering his fourth NFL season in 2023.

[rcubed]

Few years later of hindsight....

[/url]

… we should have used that pick to move up and get herbert.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

… we should have used that pick to move up and get herbert.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure - although easier said than done. It would mean trading with either Detroit or the New York Giants to move up to Pick 3 or 4 (Miami selected a QB at Pick 5).

A starting point for that type of trade would be to include the next two first round picks in addition to Pick 13. So 3 first round picks - and that still probably wouldn't get it done.

Detroit or New York could also turn around and shop the pick to the Chargers if they weren't enthused about moving all the way down to Pick 13.

[Racehorse]

Sure - although easier said than done. It would mean trading with either Detroit or the New York Giants to move up to Pick 3 or 4 (Miami selected a QB at Pick 5).

A starting point for that type of trade would be to include the next two first round picks in addition to Pick 13. So 3 first round picks - and that still probably wouldn't get it done.

Detroit or New York could also turn around and shop the pick to the Chargers if they weren't enthused about moving all the way down to Pick 13.

Plus, there were a lot of "experts" who doubted Herbert would make it in the league before the draft.

[rcubed]

Plus, there were a lot of "experts" who doubted Herbert would make it in the league before the draft.


My bad, I thought we were using “hindsight”

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

My bad, I thought we were using “hindsight”


I know, I know. However, even if the Colts had conviction that Herbert was going to be great, it might have been difficult to move up from Pick 13 to select him.


Another QB option out of that draft was Jalen Hurts. Perhaps the Colts should have used one of their two second round draft picks (Michael Pittman, Jr and Jonathan Taylor) on Hurts instead.

[Colts And Orioles]

A few years later, with some hindsight .......

Really glad Ballard traded the pick for Buckner and didn't draft Kinlaw.

Kinlaw only played in 4 games his second year in the NFL (knee issues) and only 6 games this past year (knee issues again).

For his 3 year career - he has tallied 1.5 sacks.

Rumors are the 49'ers are not going to exercise his fifth year option.





o


Historian #2 on ColtFreaks.

o

[Racehorse]

My bad, I thought we were using “hindsight”

I don't like that game. It is like when the media does a "redraft" years later. It isn't reality, so why chase the what ifs?