Importance of "Veteran Presence"

[Pez]

Ah yes...the thread with the great arm-length debate of 2019. Good times.

Not to start another good times debate, but to what extent do you think the "proverbial veteran presence" is a factor in the Ballard culture?

The reason I'm bringing this up is we see a great deal of leadership based on merit. Darius Leonard became a rookie leadership presence in the locker room by the end of the season, There is video of Quenton Nelson mentoring Costanzo

I think that veteran presence if very important, but I think it might be less important to the Colts' buy-in culture than it might be for other teams.

[omahacolt]

Al woods was said to be a great vet for the locker room. Not sure how important it is

[GoBigBlue88]

Veteran presence only really matters if your team is good and has game-changing players, tbh.

Andre Johnson was a veteran presence once. Heh. The list goes on.

[rm1369]

I don’t believe it’s all that important to Ballard. He certainly seems to put a lot of emphasis on how guys will fit culturally and schematically, but I don’t think guys have been kept or acquired to provide a “veteran presence.” Those that have been signed and provided it (Slauson, Mitchell) have primarily been signed to address short term roster holes, not necessarily to provide leadership. It’s an area where I disagree with Ballard as I don’t believe the Colts would have started 1-5 last year if they weren’t so young everywhere. Regardless it will become a moot point very quickly as Ballard’s draft picks become vets. This has always been a 3-4 year rebuild for Ballard anyway - no matter how much everyone likes to claim it wasn’t.

[rm1369]

Veteran presence only really matters if your team is good and has game-changing players, tbh.

Andre Johnson was a veteran presence once. Heh. The list goes on.

I completely disagree with this. Seeing how players take care of their bodies, study tape, etc is the kinds of things guys pickup from vets. Hilton learning tricks of the trade from Reggie is an example of veteran presence. Wilson’s attitude change after being mentored a little by Mitchell is an example of veteran presence. Guys can learn a lot from someone that’s “been there and done that.” I’d agree that a team needs some talent to get the most from it, but if your roster is so shit that there is no one capable of improving then the vets are probably your best players anyway.

[GoBigBlue88]

I completely disagree with this. Seeing how players take care of their bodies, study tape, etc is the kinds of things guys pickup from vets. Hilton learning tricks of the trade from Reggie is an example of veteran presence. Wilson’s attitude change after being mentored a little by Mitchell is an example of veteran presence. Guys can learn a lot from someone that’s “been there and done that.” I’d agree that a team needs some talent to get the most from it, but if your roster is so shit that there is no one capable of improving then the vets are probably your best players anyway.

I mean, Donte Moncrief probably learned from Reggie too. How'd that turn out?

Hilton is good because Hilton is good. Just like Campbell will be good if Campbell is good. The veteran mentorship is totally secondary to that, which was my point.

[Oldcolt]

The place I would like to see a veteran is in the secondary. Eric Berry can still play and would give a veteran presence. I'd like to see us kick those tires.

[JAFF]

I completely disagree with this. Seeing how players take care of their bodies, study tape, etc is the kinds of things guys pickup from vets. Hilton learning tricks of the trade from Reggie is an example of veteran presence. Wilson’s attitude change after being mentored a little by Mitchell is an example of veteran presence. Guys can learn a lot from someone that’s “been there and done that.” I’d agree that a team needs some talent to get the most from it, but if your roster is so shit that there is no one capable of improving then the vets are probably your best players anyway.

This isn't football, but it's about veterans and what they know.

There's a young man (compared to me) who left our town and went to the US Coast Guard Academy. He's a Commander now, and has moved through the ranks and posts. I asked him once, who had the biggest impact on his career. He said it was the old senior chief Petty officer who was finishing up his career at the Academy. He knew everything about seamanship, tradtion, and the stuff that keeps young officers from becoming casulties. Institutional knowledge of 35 years in the USCG. My young friend said,"you got the message, that you had better measure up and be worthy to command that man at sea."

Now football isn't nearly as serious, but it's the same thing in many institutions. The old wise minds who can guild the young kids so they have a chance at a successful career.

[omahacolt]

This isn’t football.

But I once talked to a kid that got hired for a job, worked hard at the job, and learned how to excel at his job because that was what he was paid to do.

[JAFF]

This isn’t football.

But I once talked to a kid that got hired for a job, worked hard at the job, and learned how to excel at his job because that was what he was paid to do.

Yeah, you had nothing to offer, nothing new there.

[YDFL Commish]

Omaha and Jaff, I think that you are both wrong.

There are levels of commitment in any job. The NFL is no exception. I can't tell you how many levels that is, but I imagine they can range of from just making a team and getting a paycheck to being the baddest ass MOFO at your position in the NFL.

That level of commitment can come from many different places and change throughout a players career.

I believe that Ballard is trying to draft guys that have the highest level of commitment already instilled in them, that way he doesn't need to hang on to aging veterans who's skills have diminished just for the sake of having veteran leadership.

Remember the Grigson mindset after he got some troubled young players, was to sign solid veteran leaders. How did that work out?

[Racehorse]

I think it all boils down to coaching. Coaches can make an impact with rookies and veterans alike.

[omahacolt]

Omaha and Jaff, I think that you are both wrong.

There are levels of commitment in any job. The NFL is no exception. I can't tell you how many levels that is, but I imagine they can range of from just making a team and getting a paycheck to being the baddest ass MOFO at your position in the NFL.

That level of commitment can come from many different places and change throughout a players career.

I believe that Ballard is trying to draft guys that have the highest level of commitment already instilled in them, that way he doesn't need to hang on to aging veterans who's skills have diminished just for the sake of having veteran leadership.

Remember the Grigson mindset after he got some troubled young players, was to sign solid veteran leaders. How did that work out?
Troubled young players? Who were they?



How am I wrong? They are paid to do a job. They should do it. The nfl is like any industry. Some dudes get hired but don’t have what it takes.

[Pez]

There is a famous Chuck Noll quote, "If I have to motivate you, I am going to fire you..."

[HoosierinFL]

Veterans are only important when they have been on the team for a long time, and have become leaders in the locker room and a voice for the team to the coaches.
You can't expect veteran free agents to come in and take on that role.

[Chaka]

I completely disagree with this. Seeing how players take care of their bodies, study tape, etc is the kinds of things guys pickup from vets. Hilton learning tricks of the trade from Reggie is an example of veteran presence. Wilson’s attitude change after being mentored a little by Mitchell is an example of veteran presence. Guys can learn a lot from someone that’s “been there and done that.” I’d agree that a team needs some talent to get the most from it, but if your roster is so shit that there is no one capable of improving then the vets are probably your best players anyway.

I agree with this to a certain extent, but those who expect the veteran players to take younger players under their wing and groom them to eventually take the veteran player’s job is just counterintuitive to me. That’s not to say that there aren’t a few players who are just natural teachers, and are supportive and encouraging to younger players, but my operating assumption is that the vast majority of veteran players are highly competitive and mostly self-interested.

Look at Peyton Manning – a guy who had no reason to ever think his job was in jeopardy (until, of course, he got seriously injured), yet he insisted on playing every down in most games, even in blowouts. Sure, I suppose it would be valuable for a younger player to watch Manning prepare (though as I type this I can't think of any Manning backups who ever amounted to anything, so the value of this is debatable), but I wouldn't expect these guys to nurture the younger players.

[TheMugwump]

I agree with this to a certain extent, but those who expect the veteran players to take younger players under their wing and groom them to eventually take the veteran player’s job is just counterintuitive to me. That’s not to say that there aren’t a few players who are just natural teachers, and are supportive and encouraging to younger players, but my operating assumption is that the vast majority of veteran players are highly competitive and mostly self-interested.

Look at Peyton Manning – a guy who had no reason to ever think his job was in jeopardy (until, of course, he got seriously injured), yet he insisted on playing every down in most games, even in blowouts. Sure, I suppose it would be valuable for a younger player to watch Manning prepare (though as I type this I can't think of any Manning backups who ever amounted to anything, so the value of this is debatable), but I wouldn't expect these guys to nurture the younger players.

I hear what you are saying, although I think at a position, say DE or DT, where there is a rotation unlike your Peyton example, there would be a lot more sharing of how to prepare your body, how to watch film, how to counter certain blocks, etc... That may just be my mental movie of it though. You're certainly correct that anyone in the NFL is super competitive and will, and should, always look out for their own job first. I think that some of those jobs are just different and lend themselves to more exchanges of information.

[YDFL Commish]

Troubled young players? Who were they?



How am I wrong? They are paid to do a job. They should do it. The nfl is like any industry. Some dudes get hired but don’t have what it takes.

You may not be entirely wrong. But, you are making it much to much of a black and white issue.

What level of performance should get a guy/player fired? It's rare for an employee who does his job, but doesn't go above and beyond to get fired.

I would say it's somewhat the same in the NFL, until somebody comes along and plays better than you and take your job away.