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View Full Version : Ballard vs Grigson - Change of Culture


Wyatt
05-05-2017, 12:39 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/indianpolis-colts-draft-picks-2017-free-agency-offseason-schedule-chirs-ballard/xso3zy0d2bq31nb4njf1je9zz?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

From an on-field production standpoint, it will take years to truly grade how well Chris Ballard did running his first NFL Draft.

But in every other way, Ballard already has earned an A-plus.

The selection process provided another glimpse of the newfound unity inside Indianapolis Colts headquarters — something that was sorely missing when Ballard’s predecessor Ryan Grigson was paired with coach Chuck Pagano.

Spike
05-05-2017, 01:54 PM
That was a very good read. Ballard comes across as a real professional, he was on the Herd yesterday and was a breath of fresh air. He appears to know what the hell he is doing, unlike Griggs and Pags. Not that it matters much, but Colin Cowherd, who is a big Luck supporter, is really impressed with Ballard. Pags better improve or I believe his ass will be gone soon, Ballard is not shy when it comes to canning incompetent asses.

Dam8610
05-05-2017, 02:55 PM
That was a very good read. Ballard comes across as a real professional, he was on the Herd yesterday and was a breath of fresh air. He appears to know what the hell he is doing, unlike Griggs and Pags. Not that it matters much, but Colin Cowherd, who is a big Luck supporter, is really impressed with Ballard. Pags better improve or I believe his ass will be gone soon, Ballard is not shy when it comes to canning incompetent asses.

Sounds like Ballard is getting along just fine with Pagano. Could be fluff, but a GM relying heavily on coordinator input to bring players in doesn't seem like a guy who's ready to clear the building.

rcubed
05-05-2017, 04:06 PM
Sounds like Ballard is getting along just fine with Pagano. Could be fluff, but a GM relying heavily on coordinator input to bring players in doesn't seem like a guy who's ready to clear the building.
Seems like he was told to give pags a one year tryout by irsay. Seems like ballard is a no-shit straight laced guy. He is doing what he said and will evaluate pags at the end of the year. He relied on the whole colts staff and his own opinions on the draft and its not like the guys drafted are reaches that pags talked him into.

pags will F it up with inept coaching and ballard will bring in his guy from KC.

njcoltfan
05-05-2017, 04:42 PM
Seems like he was told to give pags a one year tryout by irsay. Seems like ballard is a no-shit straight laced guy. He is doing what he said and will evaluate pags at the end of the year. He relied on the whole colts staff and his own opinions on the draft and its not like the guys drafted are reaches that pags talked him into.

pags will F it up with inept coaching and ballard will bring in his guy from KC.

From your mouth, to Gods ears !!

GoBigBlue88
05-05-2017, 04:44 PM
Grigson's fatal flaw is that he never had a real vision for what this team should be. If Ballard can bring one thing to the mix, vision is the thing.

omahacolt
05-05-2017, 06:36 PM
Sounds like Ballard is getting along just fine with Pagano. Could be fluff, but a GM relying heavily on coordinator input to bring players in doesn't seem like a guy who's ready to clear the building.

just wait until he sees pagano in action. he will clear the building

and every gm listens to the coordinators. of course he would. would be a failure not to. that is his fucking job

Spike
05-05-2017, 07:40 PM
Seems like he was told to give pags a one year tryout by irsay. Seems like ballard is a no-shit straight laced guy. He is doing what he said and will evaluate pags at the end of the year. He relied on the whole colts staff and his own opinions on the draft and its not like the guys drafted are reaches that pags talked him into.

pags will F it up with inept coaching and ballard will bring in his guy from KC.

Pags is a dead man walking! He is one of the most incompetent head coaches I have ever seen.

Butter
05-05-2017, 07:49 PM
Pags is a dead man walking! He is one of the most incompetent head coaches I have ever seen.

I want Pags gone, but that seems pretty damn extreme.

Brylok
05-05-2017, 08:06 PM
"We’ve revamped the outside linebacker position. And I’ve made this clear — we will always look for rushers in the draft. You can never have enough."
Amen to that!

Spike
05-05-2017, 08:08 PM
I want Pags gone, but that seems pretty damn extreme.

Not talking about his real life, talking about his coaching life. Should have made it clearer.

Oldcolt
05-06-2017, 11:18 AM
I'm going to get flamed big time for this but I think keeping Pagano is the right thing to do. Couple of reasons. First is the injury to Luck. Putting in a new offense without you qb to run thru it would be daunting. Second was the improved offensive line play the last half of the year. Third he never 'lost' the locker room. Most important, I don't know how many of you have ever worked for a total asshole. I have and am. I am a professional (38 years an obstetrician, recently went from private practice to working for a hospital) but it takes all I have to give good care working with the jerk who runs this hospital. What I do requires a team effort to work and when the top of the team is an ass it makes it impossible to do your best work. Get rid of the cancer at the top and everything works better. I am hoping that this is what happens to my Colts. What other choice is there anyway but to hope that Pagano shines in this new environment. But I must admit its hope, not belief.

IndyNorm
05-06-2017, 11:45 AM
I want Pags gone, but that seems pretty damn extreme.

Is it?

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/5624eafb9dd7ccfc418b7b95/heres-what-happened-on-the-colts-horrible-fake-punt--the-worst-play-in-nfl-history.jpg

IndyNorm
05-06-2017, 11:49 AM
Sounds like Ballard is getting along just fine with Pagano. Could be fluff, but a GM relying heavily on coordinator input to bring players in doesn't seem like a guy who's ready to clear the building.

We'll see how much Ballard still likes Clappy when the Colts show up week one at the Rams with no clue as to what the hell is going on and end up being down by 3 tds before realizing they're actually supposed to be playing football that day.

smitty46953
05-06-2017, 11:51 AM
I'm going to get flamed big time for this but I think keeping Pagano is the right thing to do. Couple of reasons. First is the injury to Luck. Putting in a new offense without you qb to run thru it would be daunting. Second was the improved offensive line play the last half of the year. Third he never 'lost' the locker room. Most important, I don't know how many of you have ever worked for a total asshole. I have and am. I am a professional (38 years an obstetrician, recently went from private practice to working for a hospital) but it takes all I have to give good care working with the jerk who runs this hospital. What I do requires a team effort to work and when the top of the team is an ass it makes it impossible to do your best work. Get rid of the cancer at the top and everything works better. I am hoping that this is what happens to my Colts. What other choice is there anyway but to hope that Pagano shines in this new environment. But I must admit its hope, not belief.

Your reason number one may very well be the only reason Irsay and Ballard kept Pagano. Knowing Luck was hurt and his availability in doubt, not right time... :cool:

Spike
05-06-2017, 12:38 PM
Is it?

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/5624eafb9dd7ccfc418b7b95/heres-what-happened-on-the-colts-horrible-fake-punt--the-worst-play-in-nfl-history.jpg

That was one of the dumbest, most asinine plays I have ever witnessed. A complete and utter embarrassment. I mean who even practices a formation like that? The Traveling Chuckles Clown Show on full display there.

Dam8610
05-06-2017, 09:16 PM
That was one of the dumbest, most asinine plays I have ever witnessed. A complete and utter embarrassment. I mean who even practices a formation like that? The Traveling Chuckles Clown Show on full display there.

If you judge anyone by the worst decision of their career, you will find everyone incompetent, including the overly idolized cheater.

omahacolt
05-07-2017, 07:32 AM
If you judge anyone by the worst decision of their career, you will find everyone incompetent, including the overly idolized cheater.

Still washing paganos balls I see

IndyNorm
05-07-2017, 09:34 AM
If you judge anyone by the worst decision of their career, you will find everyone incompetent, including the overly idolized cheater.

Not all worst decisions are created equal and some are so blatantly bad (like this one) that they should be held against someone for their entire career since it clearly shows their incompetence.

Hoopsdoc
05-07-2017, 10:30 AM
Is it?

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/5624eafb9dd7ccfc418b7b95/heres-what-happened-on-the-colts-horrible-fake-punt--the-worst-play-in-nfl-history.jpg

Perfectly played.

indycolts2
05-07-2017, 10:55 AM
That was one of the dumbest, most asinine plays I have ever witnessed. A complete and utter embarrassment. I mean who even practices a formation like that? The Traveling Chuckles Clown Show on full display there.

What compunds the level of stupidity if memory serves me correct is running the play with only one of the two players who had been practicing it. Whalen was subbed in wasn't he?

indycolts2
05-07-2017, 11:00 AM
If you judge anyone by the worst decision of their career, you will find everyone incompetent, including the overly idolized cheater.

Problem here is you can actually go back and comprise a ranking of particularly bad decisions by Pagano that he then steadfastly defends after the game by stating he wouldn't change a thing. It's not single play calls however that will doom Pagano. It will be a and/or combination of poor game starts leading to large deficits or second half performances that show an inability to make effective adjustments withint the game itself.

Spike
05-07-2017, 02:22 PM
What compunds the level of stupidity if memory serves me correct is running the play with only one of the two players who had been practicing it. Whalen was subbed in wasn't he?

If I recall correctly, I believe he was subbed in. Whalen at center and Colt Anderson at QB, now that's a winning combination. Pags sure fooled the Pats. Hell, even if they accomplished what they wanted with that stupid play, it would have been a penalty on the Colts for an illegal formation. Coaching at its finest.

Spike
05-07-2017, 02:24 PM
This guy pretty much sums up how I felt after watching that botched trick play.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/10/18/9565897/the-colts-ran-what-may-be-the-worst-trick-play-in-nfl-history

jasperhobbs
05-07-2017, 04:49 PM
I heard Grigson got a job changing cultures at a yogurt factory.

IndyNorm
05-07-2017, 07:35 PM
This guy pretty much sums up how I felt after watching that botched trick play.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/10/18/9565897/the-colts-ran-what-may-be-the-worst-trick-play-in-nfl-history

Yeah he does. I love how it sums it up with: This was a disgusting bouillabaisse of terrible ideas and terrible execution, and I am a worse human for having witnessed it.

nate505
05-07-2017, 09:23 PM
Is it?

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/5624eafb9dd7ccfc418b7b95/heres-what-happened-on-the-colts-horrible-fake-punt--the-worst-play-in-nfl-history.jpg

Absolute and total coaching malpractice. I know people say a coach shouldn't be fired over one play, but this is the exception to that rule.

apballin
05-07-2017, 09:25 PM
Fuck the pats!

The play was dumb as fuck but I like the fact Pagano was pulling out everything to beat those motherfuckers!

Next time leave the offense in and GO FOR IT!! Fuck them!!

nate505
05-07-2017, 09:26 PM
That was one of the dumbest, most asinine plays I have ever witnessed. A complete and utter embarrassment. I mean who even practices a formation like that? The Traveling Chuckles Clown Show on full display there.

It was fucking bizarre to watch. It was almost surreal, like I was in some sort of alternate drug induced universe that I couldn't fully comprehend. It's like the stupidity of the moment made time slow down. I do remember thinking, in a vein attempt to snap me back to reality thinking "ok, they'll call a timeout. That's fucking stupid and a waste of a timeout, but he couldn't possibly be absolutely stupid enough not to call one." And holy mother of fucks, he was. It was like a calming measure of disbelief when I saw it happened, only to be replaced by an angry wave of profanities that a coach could be so fucking worthless and incompetent to call a play like that, of which my wife came down to see what was inducing my rage.

Dam8610
05-07-2017, 10:16 PM
Not all worst decisions are created equal and some are so blatantly bad (like this one) that they should be held against someone for their entire career since it clearly shows their incompetence.

I'd rank 4th and 2 and neglecting to take the points (twice) as worse decisions made by the cheater. Neglecting to take the points cost him an AFC Championship.

albany ed
05-08-2017, 07:04 AM
I've been a critic of Pagano for a long time. He's just not HC material. However, no matter who coaches the team this year, they're not ready for the SB. Pagano will once again fail, the Colts will get another top 15 draft position and by 2018, will be solid enough to possibly go all the way. Provided Ballard's selections perform as well as expected and he has another solid draft and signs a few free agents. Also, he gets a good HC.

rcubed
05-08-2017, 12:11 PM
I try not to look backwards in life too much, but could you imagine where we would be if someone like ballard had been hired when we first drafted luck? Most likely better drafting and FAs, probably no pagano, a better plan for how to construct the team around a very good, cost controlled QB. Man, where we could be right now....

Butter
05-08-2017, 08:44 PM
I've been a critic of Pagano for a long time. He's just not HC material. However, no matter who coaches the team this year, they're not ready for the SB. Pagano will once again fail, the Colts will get another top 15 draft position and by 2018, will be solid enough to possibly go all the way. Provided Ballard's selections perform as well as expected and he has another solid draft and signs a few free agents. Also, he gets a good HC.

I agree on the SB part, but this team was a game away from the playoffs last season, so a top 15 pick is not such a sure thing. I would not be surprised if we one the south buying Pags another shitty year to coach.

Dam8610
05-08-2017, 09:31 PM
I agree on the SB part, but this team was a game away from the playoffs last season, so a top 15 pick is not such a sure thing. I would not be surprised if we one the south buying Pags another shitty year to coach.

Yeah, hopefully Pagano's shitty coaching can lead to a lot more shitty division titles and shitty playoff appearances, a few shitty deep playoff runs, and maybe even some shitty Super Bowl wins. And everyone here can bitch about it the entire time. It'll be great.

Coltsalr
05-08-2017, 09:44 PM
Yeah, hopefully Pagano's shitty coaching can lead to a lot more shitty division titles and shitty playoff appearances, a few shitty deep playoff runs, and maybe even some shitty Super Bowl wins. And everyone here can bitch about it the entire time. It'll be great.

You're sexually attracted to Pagano, aren't you?

Dam8610
05-08-2017, 09:51 PM
You're sexually attracted to Pagano, aren't you?

No, but I am sick of the prevailing attitude around here that would prefer to see Pagano fail instead of the Colts succeed.

Butter
05-08-2017, 09:54 PM
No, but I am sick of the prevailing attitude around here that would prefer to see Pagano fail instead of the Colts succeed.

I don't want to see him fail, but his past record indicates he will fail. I want him gone.

Dam8610
05-08-2017, 10:19 PM
I don't want to see him fail, but his past record indicates he will fail. I want him gone.

His literal past record indicates the opposite, as he has an over .600 career winning percentage and is currently the 30th best coach all time in winning percentage. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

Puck
05-08-2017, 10:23 PM
His literal past record indicates the opposite, as he has an over .600 career winning percentage and is currently the 30th best coach all time in winning percentage. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your argument.



He also gets credit for one of the... nope. THE STUPIDEST PLAY INT HE HISTORY OF THE NFL!

Also the epic blow outs by the Pats and Steelers And he also gets credit for not getting above a 8-8 record last yr

But don't let those facts get in the way of YOUR argument

FatDT
05-09-2017, 01:10 AM
His literal past record indicates the opposite, as he has an over .600 career winning percentage and is currently the 30th best coach all time in winning percentage. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

You have objectively demonstrated a measure of intelligence by your interest in stats, your ability to write clearly, some of your analysis. I don't believe you are actually a stupid person. But I do not understand why you choose to narrow the set of facts to only fit your chosen narrative and then pretend like you aren't doing it. Why be intentionally dense? You know just as well as everyone else that your winning percentage argument, and the implied conclusion that it justifies his coaching, is nonsense. Just stop it with this superior "I know better" shtick. The case against Pagano is well-established. Demanding that it be reproven to you is just a tactic meant to wear others down so you can appear right.

No one here hates Pagano. No one wants him to fail, that means the Colts fail and it's not logical to be a fan but want your team to fail. The fear you are mischaracterizing is that the increase in talent and competence in the front office will mask Pagano's incompetence and keep him in charge of the team despite his demonstrated lack of ability to handle it. You know this but you still set up straw men and then pretend you've won something by defeating them.

Sorry to write so much but I've had a few beers and am feeling verbose.

rcubed
05-09-2017, 01:44 AM
You have objectively demonstrated a measure of intelligence by your interest in stats, your ability to write clearly, some of your analysis. I don't believe you are actually a stupid person. But I do not understand why you choose to narrow the set of facts to only fit your chosen narrative and then pretend like you aren't doing it. Why be intentionally dense? You know just as well as everyone else that your winning percentage argument, and the implied conclusion that it justifies his coaching, is nonsense. Just stop it with this superior "I know better" shtick. The case against Pagano is well-established. Demanding that it be reproven to you is just a tactic meant to wear others down so you can appear right.

No one here hates Pagano. No one wants him to fail, that means the Colts fail and it's not logical to be a fan but want your team to fail. The fear you are mischaracterizing is that the increase in talent and competence in the front office will mask Pagano's incompetence and keep him in charge of the team despite his demonstrated lack of ability to handle it. You know this but you still set up straw men and then pretend you've won something by defeating them.

Sorry to write so much but I've had a few beers and am feeling verbose.
Then you should drink and post more often

Dam8610
05-09-2017, 01:11 PM
You have objectively demonstrated a measure of intelligence by your interest in stats, your ability to write clearly, some of your analysis. I don't believe you are actually a stupid person. But I do not understand why you choose to narrow the set of facts to only fit your chosen narrative and then pretend like you aren't doing it. Why be intentionally dense? You know just as well as everyone else that your winning percentage argument, and the implied conclusion that it justifies his coaching, is nonsense. Just stop it with this superior "I know better" shtick. The case against Pagano is well-established. Demanding that it be reproven to you is just a tactic meant to wear others down so you can appear right.

No one here hates Pagano. No one wants him to fail, that means the Colts fail and it's not logical to be a fan but want your team to fail. The fear you are mischaracterizing is that the increase in talent and competence in the front office will mask Pagano's incompetence and keep him in charge of the team despite his demonstrated lack of ability to handle it. You know this but you still set up straw men and then pretend you've won something by defeating them.

Sorry to write so much but I've had a few beers and am feeling verbose.

I'm not demanding any proof of anything. These are all opinions, but coaches with .600+ winning percentages don't grow on trees. There are 35 in NFL history, six of which are active. You claim incompetence, but to me, it requires a great deal of cognitive dissonance to make your argument work. You claim that an infusion of talent would "mask Pagano's incompetence", but Occam's Razor would suggest that if a talent deficiency caused poorer than expected results the last two seasons, and a talent infusion fixes the problem, then perhaps the talent deficiency was the problem all along.

Also, you may not be part of the group, but there is a large contingent here that seems to be hoping for a bad season to get rid of Pagano. Personally, I'd rather go back to the days where the playoffs were all that mattered, and making it there was a foregone conclusion and an expectation.

rcubed
05-09-2017, 01:44 PM
^^^ to me its not about his record.
The team is extremely unprepared most of the time.
There doesnt seem to be a lot of adjustments.
He has an old-school mentality with little forward thinking.
In game decision making is not his strong suit.
Regularly gets out coached.

If you want to talk record:
His entire first year of "wins" should be attributed to arians.
His record outside the crappy AFC south stinks.
Playoff record stinks as do the outcomes of many of the games

Dam8610
05-09-2017, 02:58 PM
^^^ to me its not about his record.
The team is extremely unprepared most of the time.
There doesnt seem to be a lot of adjustments.
He has an old-school mentality with little forward thinking.
In game decision making is not his strong suit.
Regularly gets out coached.

If you want to talk record:
His entire first year of "wins" should be attributed to arians.
His record outside the crappy AFC south stinks.
Playoff record stinks as do the outcomes of many of the games

Over the last two years, the team's performance has essentially been dependent on the offense. If Luck came out hot, the team won most of the time, sometimes in convincing fashion. If the offense struggled, the team lost. To me, that suggests a one dimensional team that lacked talent on the other side of the ball, which doesn't fall on the coaching staff. The times the team "looked unprepared" or "came out flat" were the times the offense struggled. Having a one dimensional team reflects poorly on talent evaluation, not coaching.

rcubed
05-09-2017, 04:42 PM
Over the last two years, the team's performance has essentially been dependent on the offense. If Luck came out hot, the team won most of the time, sometimes in convincing fashion. If the offense struggled, the team lost. To me, that suggests a one dimensional team that lacked talent on the other side of the ball, which doesn't fall on the coaching staff. The times the team "looked unprepared" or "came out flat" were the times the offense struggled. Having a one dimensional team reflects poorly on talent evaluation, not coaching.
He is the head coach. He is responsible for the whole team. That's what he signed up for. If the O is flat, he needs to get on his coordinators and players to fix that shit. Not clap and pat them on the ass.

Pags is supposed to be a defensive wiz. Even with lesser talent than the top teams, I would still expect some growth. Really the only growth that comes to mind is the maturation of davis after being traded here, and who knows if pags had anything to do with that. Maybe davis just realized he needed to get his shit together.

You conveniently didnt mention any of the other points listed above. You just always fall back on lack of defense players given to him by grigs and that pags had no input into those players.

Dam8610
05-09-2017, 05:42 PM
He is the head coach. He is responsible for the whole team. That's what he signed up for. If the O is flat, he needs to get on his coordinators and players to fix that shit. Not clap and pat them on the ass.

Pags is supposed to be a defensive wiz. Even with lesser talent than the top teams, I would still expect some growth. Really the only growth that comes to mind is the maturation of davis after being traded here, and who knows if pags had anything to do with that. Maybe davis just realized he needed to get his shit together.

You conveniently didnt mention any of the other points listed above. You just always fall back on lack of defense players given to him by grigs and that pags had no input into those players.

The expectation on this board that a team and its players play their sharpest and best football at all times is unreasonable and unrealistic. Players are not always going to be at their best. To blame that on coaching is lazy, short-sighted thinking.

rcubed
05-09-2017, 06:11 PM
The expectation on this board that a team and its players play their sharpest and best football at all times is unreasonable and unrealistic. Players are not always going to be at their best. To blame that on coaching is lazy, short-sighted thinking.

http://i.imgur.com/4G1R5dD.jpg

rcubed
05-09-2017, 06:15 PM
The expectation on this board that a team and its players play their sharpest and best football at all times is unreasonable and unrealistic. Players are not always going to be at their best. To blame that on coaching is lazy, short-sighted thinking.
No one here has that expectation. You are projecting that to fit your narrative.

I DO blame the coaches for consistently not having players prepared, not having an intelligent game plan, or making adjustments. To not hold the coaches accountable for such consistent failure is stupid, short-sighted thinking.

Dam8610
05-09-2017, 06:42 PM
I don't understand how you find that to be such a difficult concept. The mark of a great team is not an ability to consistently play well, it's being able to respond to and overcome adversity. Being able to win games when they don't perform their best, or "have no business winning". That's a trait the team has shown under Pagano. Maybe not all the time, but more often than not, and more often than most teams. The 2006-2009 Colts tended to fall behind early and have these dreaded "slow starts", but no one cared because they came back from it and won typically. I'd rather have a team that can overcome adversity than a team that doesn't have to deal with it, because the 2005 Colts folded when faced with their first dose of adversity.

rcubed
05-09-2017, 06:56 PM
I don't understand how you find that to be such a difficult concept. The mark of a great team is not an ability to consistently play well, it's being able to respond to and overcome adversity. Being able to win games when they don't perform their best, or "have no business winning". That's a trait the team has shown under Pagano. Maybe not all the time, but more often than not, and more often than most teams. The 2006-2009 Colts tended to fall behind early and have these dreaded "slow starts", but no one cared because they came back from it and won typically. I'd rather have a team that can overcome adversity than a team that doesn't have to deal with it, because the 2005 Colts folded when faced with their first dose of adversity.
That's completely backwards.

"The mark of a great team is not an ability to consistently play well..." Seriously? WTF man!?

Great teams win consistently without having to regularly overcome huge deficits. Being able to sometimes dig down and come from behind is a great trait to have, but that cant be how you regularly operate. The 2006 colts had a big come from behind win against the pats to go to the SB. The pats had a huge come from behind win in the last SB. But in general, great teams go out there and handle their business. Thats how dynasties happen, they win consistently by playing consistently well.

Dam8610
05-09-2017, 07:56 PM
That's completely backwards.

"The mark of a great team is not an ability to consistently play well..." Seriously? WTF man!?

Great teams win consistently without having to regularly overcome huge deficits. Being able to sometimes dig down and come from behind is a great trait to have, but that cant be how you regularly operate. The 2006 colts had a big come from behind win against the pats to go to the SB. The pats had a huge come from behind win in the last SB. But in general, great teams go out there and handle their business. Thats how dynasties happen, they win consistently by playing consistently well.

No team ever just comes out and dominates every game start to finish. No team. The team that came closest to that was the 2005 Colts, being the first and only team in NFL history to win their first 13 games by 7 or more points. Never happened before then, hasn't happened since. What that says is that a championship team will at some point face adversity, and will need to be able to overcome it. Every player and every team is going to have situations where they come out flat, get punched in the mouth, and get down by 2 scores quickly. It's not avoiding that that makes a great team (because avoiding it has never happened), it's overcoming it. The Colts under Pagano have shown that ability on many occasions. And since no team ever has met your standard, I'd say it's pretty reasonable to call it unrealistic and unreasonable.

FatDT
05-09-2017, 08:00 PM
This is the part where Dam doubles down on bad arguments and ridiculous straw men and wears everyone out with his stubbornness.

Maniac
05-09-2017, 08:07 PM
Pagano is a moron. The only ones can't see that are also morons.

omahacolt
05-09-2017, 08:32 PM
How nice would it be to work for dam? You don't have to do fuck all. Nothing is ever your fault

Dam being a shift manager at Burger King has never been so obvious. Blaming the people above him and below him but never middle management

Dam8610
05-09-2017, 08:43 PM
This is the part where Dam doubles down on bad arguments and ridiculous straw men and wears everyone out with his stubbornness.

If what I said is a strawman argument, then please explain what is meant when people say that the team "isn't prepared" or "starts slow". Those are the two biggest complaints around here about the team under Pagano (which, if you think about it for any time at all, essentially boil down to the same complaint), and if I didn't encapsulate the concept of "slow start" with "come out flat, get punched in the mouth, and get down 2 scores early" then I really would like to know what does.

Spike
05-09-2017, 08:53 PM
I'm not demanding any proof of anything. These are all opinions, but coaches with .600+ winning percentages don't grow on trees. There are 35 in NFL history, six of which are active. You claim incompetence, but to me, it requires a great deal of cognitive dissonance to make your argument work. You claim that an infusion of talent would "mask Pagano's incompetence", but Occam's Razor would suggest that if a talent deficiency caused poorer than expected results the last two seasons, and a talent infusion fixes the problem, then perhaps the talent deficiency was the problem all along.

Also, you may not be part of the group, but there is a large contingent here that seems to be hoping for a bad season to get rid of Pagano. Personally, I'd rather go back to the days where the playoffs were all that mattered, and making it there was a foregone conclusion and an expectation.

No there's not, if there is, what posters have stated that? In spite of me not liking Pagano as the Colts coach, I want them to win every damn game this year. Pointing out his obvious flaws is not the same as hoping he fails and the Colts suck just to get rid of him.

Brylok
05-09-2017, 10:22 PM
This thread... smh. Training camp can't come soon enough.

rcubed
05-09-2017, 10:51 PM
No team ever just comes out and dominates every game start to finish. No team. The team that came closest to that was the 2005 Colts, being the first and only team in NFL history to win their first 13 games by 7 or more points. Never happened before then, hasn't happened since. What that says is that a championship team will at some point face adversity, and will need to be able to overcome it. Every player and every team is going to have situations where they come out flat, get punched in the mouth, and get down by 2 scores quickly. It's not avoiding that that makes a great team (because avoiding it has never happened), it's overcoming it. The Colts under Pagano have shown that ability on many occasions. And since no team ever has met your standard, I'd say it's pretty reasonable to call it unrealistic and unreasonable.
Man you are stubborn and dense.

No one ever said dominate start to finish.
Consistently play well does not mean every play is perfect or every drive scores. It sure doesnt mean REGULARLY starting slow and being down by multiple scores.

Dam8610
05-10-2017, 12:26 AM
Man you are stubborn and dense.

No one ever said dominate start to finish.
Consistently play well does not mean every play is perfect or every drive scores. It sure doesnt mean REGULARLY starting slow and being down by multiple scores.

2006-2009 Colts "slow starts": 14
2013-2016 Colts "slow starts": 16

Not sure there's a statistically relevant difference here.

rcubed
05-10-2017, 01:48 AM
2006-2009 Colts "slow starts": 14
2013-2016 Colts "slow starts": 16

Not sure there's a statistically relevant difference here.
Where did you get those numbers? What criteria was used?

Luck4Reich
05-10-2017, 05:59 AM
Where did you get those numbers? What criteria was used?

The criteria he used was pulling it out of his ass.

Racehorse
05-10-2017, 07:09 AM
If what I said is a strawman argument, then please explain what is meant when people say that the team "isn't prepared" or "starts slow". Those are the two biggest complaints around here about the team under Pagano (which, if you think about it for any time at all, essentially boil down to the same complaint), and if I didn't encapsulate the concept of "slow start" with "come out flat, get punched in the mouth, and get down 2 scores early" then I really would like to know what does.
Look at the freaking play calling. It is so dreadful at the start of the game and that falls on Pagano.

Wyatt
05-10-2017, 07:25 AM
as Brylok stated, can't wait for training camp to be here....this back and forth reminds me of my ex wife and I

But anyway, just saw this blurb come across my twitter feed

@JuMosq
Indianapolis Colts since 2006
Big Wins (8+): 48
Close Games: 92
Big Losses (8+): 36
Adjusted win percentage: 53.41%

Maniac
05-10-2017, 07:51 AM
2006-2009 Colts "slow starts": 14
2013-2016 Colts "slow starts": 16

Not sure there's a statistically relevant difference here.

2006-2009 Colts slow starts : 5
2013-2016 Colts slow starts : 800.623

apballin
05-10-2017, 10:24 PM
Pagano can still lead this team to a championship, a healthy Luck and Grigson gone we'll see what happens. He's made some dumb calls but what coach hasn't? Tomlin got embarrassed by the Pats last year

Racehorse
05-11-2017, 07:09 AM
Pagano can still lead this team to a championship, a healthy Luck and Grigson gone we'll see what happens. He's made some dumb calls but what coach hasn't? Tomlin got embarrassed by the Pats last year

Pagano can't lead us there; Luck can and Pagano will be along for the ride.

Wyatt
05-11-2017, 01:53 PM
I've listed a few of my favorite Ballard Quotes from this interview one of the best articles yet that I've found on Ballard's change of culture.


Referring to Luck's presser after the Chiefs put an ass whooping on us

“And so I watched the press conference with Andrew, and he owned it all,” Ballard said from his new office on Tuesday. “Didn’t throw anyone under the bus. He owned everything. His mistake or not, he owned everything. And I’ll never forget going down, and I told [Chiefs GM John] Dorsey, ‘Boy, I just watched one of the best press conferences I’ve ever seen.’ A kid who owned it all. And that’s what the great leaders do—they don’t point fingers and they don’t blame.

The defense stands to have five new starters in the front seven and, if rookies win jobs in the secondary, seven new starters overall. And yet, the offensive lineup may well not undergo a single change.

Regarding Jack Doyle

“We liked him in Kansas City,” Ballard said. “And finding out what he stood for—he was an undrafted kid who was cut, claimed by Indy, who had to earn his way and earn everyone’s respect, and earn his playtime. And then he produced. And he’s great in the locker room, he’s great in the community. He’s everything we want a Colt to be. That was priority No. 1, to make sure that we got Jack Doyle done.”

“When you pay a player who has not earned it, who is not a great worker, who doesn’t make an impact in the locker room, [players] know it,” Ballard said. “They know who’s earned it. … I’ve never been around a good team in this league where the locker room didn’t hold each other accountable, didn’t put pressure on each other to win. That’s what you have to have. They know. They know.”

Regarding the FA Signings

“We wanted to do shorter-term deals, that way all of them have a chance to hit free agency again,” said Ballard. “The flip side, for us, we know we’re gonna get the best out of them, because they know there’s another contract on the back side of this.”
After saying that, and going back to “the locker room knows” theme, the Colts GM was quick to reinforce that “every guy we’ve signed, from John Simon to Hankins to Sheard, have all earned it. All of them have earned it.” This just gives them a shot to earn even more.

Talking about the O-line

“I’ll give [previous GM[ Ryan Grigson a lot of credit for this—he drafted [center Ryan] Kelly, [tackle Joe] Haeg and [tackle] Le’Raven Clark all in one year,” Ballard said. “Thank god he did, because [the 2017 draft] was a down year for offensive line. We gotta let those guys develop. So it’s the combination of [left tackle] Anthony Castonzo, [guard] Jack] Mewhort, Kelly, Haeg, L’Raven Clark, Denzelle Good, we signed Brian Schwenke from Tennesse, we drafted [Zach] Banner. ...
“Are we perfect yet? No. But do we have a good group to work with? I do believe that. There’s definitely hope there. Now we gotta let those guys develop.”

More than just Luck

“Everybody knows how hard that position is to find,” Ballard said. “When you have a guy with special talent at the position and he’s got special character on top of it, that’s a pretty good thing. But the one big thing I’ve made a point of here, it’s not just Andrew. We’ve got to have the best 53-man roster, and that includes Andrew.
“That’s how we’ll help him, by making the roster around him better both offensively and defensively. That’s what we’re gonna do. It can’t be just about Andrew.”

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/05/11/indianapolis-colts-andrew-luck-chris-ballard-nfl-notebook

Puck
05-11-2017, 09:09 PM
Look at the freaking play calling. It is so dreadful at the start of the game and that falls on Pagano.


It falls on Chud. But I am convinced it is driven by The Clapper.... 2nd coordinator with completely different styles but the same issues to start the games.

Racehorse
05-12-2017, 08:15 AM
It falls on Chud. But I am convinced it is driven by The Clapper.... 2nd coordinator with completely different styles but the same issues to start the games.

It is easy to point to Chud, but he is doing as he is told to do. Pags is the real culprit when it comes to slow starts.

IndyNorm
05-12-2017, 07:32 PM
No team ever just comes out and dominates every game start to finish. No team. The team that came closest to that was the 2005 Colts, being the first and only team in NFL history to win their first 13 games by 7 or more points. Never happened before then, hasn't happened since. What that says is that a championship team will at some point face adversity, and will need to be able to overcome it. Every player and every team is going to have situations where they come out flat, get punched in the mouth, and get down by 2 scores quickly. It's not avoiding that that makes a great team (because avoiding it has never happened), it's overcoming it. The Colts under Pagano have shown that ability on many occasions. And since no team ever has met your standard, I'd say it's pretty reasonable to call it unrealistic and unreasonable.

The difference that you fail to grasp is that under Clappy it doesn't occasionally happen, it consistently happens. This clearly shows a lack of ability from him and his staff to get the team properly prepared. Yes, we do come back quite often when we're playing bad teams like the Jagoffs, but when we play any good they just continue to kick the crap out of us.

IndyNorm
05-12-2017, 07:34 PM
How nice would it be to work for dam? You don't have to do fuck all. Nothing is ever your fault

Dam being a shift manager at Burger King has never been so obvious. Blaming the people above him and below him but never middle management

Haha, hell yes it would. "Sorry I didn't show up until noon again boss, but I promise as long as I don't have anything challenging I'll make a come back and have a good day". :D

Chromeburn
05-13-2017, 04:24 PM
"We’ve revamped the outside linebacker position. And I’ve made this clear — we will always look for rushers in the draft. You can never have enough."
Amen to that!

After watching Atlanta run out of steam at the end of the game, I couldn't agree more. Although their offense could have had some longer running possessions to help them out.

sherck
05-16-2017, 08:54 AM
MMQB article on Ballard. (http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/05/11/indianapolis-colts-andrew-luck-chris-ballard-nfl-notebook)
Another good article on Ballard and his season strategy.

I think this guy is going to take the team places. Man, I have got a good feeling about him.

Cheers,

omahacolt
05-16-2017, 06:34 PM
MMQB article on Ballard. (http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/05/11/indianapolis-colts-andrew-luck-chris-ballard-nfl-notebook)
Another good article on Ballard and his season strategy.

I think this guy is going to take the team places. Man, I have got a good feeling about him.

Cheers,

it is all talk at this point.