Ballard and Steichen are safe

[Kray007]

Reports are that they’ll be back next year

[nate505]

After this amazing season and successful track record, of course they are.

[ChoppedWood]

The Socials are exploding in rage at this. With good reason. We are rewarding failure, over and over and over again.

[ChaosTheory]

Aw, poor beat writers.

[Hoopsdoc]

Not sure how I feel about this. I can see both sides of the argument.

[Dewey 5]

We're screwed. Is Ballard banging Carlie?

[Lov2fish]

I was on the boat of, if they went good. If they stayed, good. I know SS is green and he shows flashes of being a great coach. Then he does stuff remedial football players know are wrong. Since he is going to be here I hope he watches film on himself and sorts it out. Ballard struggles with certain aspects of talent evaluation, and excels at others. Maybe he can put his ego aside and get someone to help him where he is weak. A stretch I know, but as a fan I can wish.

[Puck]

Not sure how I feel about this. I can see both sides of the argument.

I agree. We saw how it looks when were full strength. Shane has obviously done a very good job when he has a good QB. Injuries screwed us.

I will continue to say this even though many disagree. Jim held Ballard back on FA. IMO This yr he went for it and it made us a pretty good team Again Injuries screwed us.

IIRC Both Ballard and Shane are under contract through 2026. They will get paid no matter what. So they would have to pay their replacements also.

replacements would be coming in knowing they do not have a 1st round pick for the next two drafts.

I do expect we will be losing some players like some or most of us want gone

[Kray007]

No one should be surprised. Until their starting Quarterback broke his leg, they were one of the most dominant Offenses in the league. On D, few teams could overcome the avalanche of injuries that sank that side of the ball into mediocrity. In addition to losing Ward, Gardner and Buckner, they lost Walley before the season began and injuries kept their most promising cover Linebacker, Carlies, on the sidelines.

Some will try to say that it’s possible to overcome injuries. They’ll point to San Francisco as evidence. The difference is that the 49’ers were never reduced to signing someone like Phillip Rivers off the street. They never played a game in which they started a 6th round draft pick who was 4th on the depth chart.

If you want to see the impact of a catastrophic rash of injuries at QB, look no further than Kansas City, where their 3rd stringer managed 260 yards passing in 3 games and KC scored a cumulative 34 points.

[IndyNorm]

Not sure how I feel about this. I can see both sides of the argument.

Same. It's probably the best for next year, but not so sure long term. As I said in another post if inherit a business that's been in the red for 5 straight years and 7 of the last 9 then it's probably time to move on from your COO.

Also, I'm pretty disappointed that we lost to HOU after they put in most of their backups in the 2nd half. Especially disappointed w/ how our OL performed against their backup DL.

[Hoopsdoc]

No one should be surprised. Until their starting Quarterback broke his leg, they were one of the most dominant Offenses in the league. On D, few teams could overcome the avalanche of injuries that sank that side of the ball into mediocrity. In addition to losing Ward, Gardner and Buckner, they lost Walley before the season began and injuries kept their most promising cover Linebacker, Carlies, on the sidelines.

Some will try to say that it’s possible to overcome injuries. They’ll point to San Francisco as evidence. The difference is that the 49’ers were never reduced to signing someone like Phillip Rivers off the street. They never played a game in which they started a 6th round draft pick who was 4th on the depth chart.

If you want to see the impact of a catastrophic rash of injuries at QB, look no further than Kansas City, where their 3rd stringer managed 260 yards passing in 3 games and KC scored a cumulative 34 points.

Riley Leonard made a very compelling argument today that Rivers should never have been signed. To me, that move turned out to be the most egregious mistake they made, and it was all on Steichen.

If they would have fired them all because of that move alone, I would have been fine with it.

[Kray007]

The Socials are exploding in rage at this. With good reason. We are rewarding failure, over and over and over again.

What Carlie Irsay Gordon is saying is that we won’t fire the pilot after a wing falls off the plane at 35.000 feet.

[Kray007]

Riley Leonard made a very compelling argument today that Rivers should never have been signed. To me, that move turned out to be the most egregious mistake they made, and it was all on Steichen.

If they would have fired them all because of that move alone, I would have been fine with it.

Leonard looked great and, in retrospect, playing him might have been the right move. But no one could have predicted that he’d play this well.

After Jones went down vs Jacksonville, he completed 18 of 29 for 145 yards, with 29 coming on a single play. He tossed 1 interception and finished the game with an NFL rating of 60.

The team was demoralized, and starting him would have been perceived, far and wide, as going belly up and running out the white flag.

[Puck]

Riley Leonard made a very compelling argument today that Rivers should never have been signed. To me, that move turned out to be the most egregious mistake they made, and it was all on Steichen.

If they would have fired them all because of that move alone, I would have been fine with it.

When they brought Rivers in They still had a chance to make the playoffs. RL had just injured his knee and he was the only available QB on the team. They knew they needed a QB to either back up Riley or start. They brought in Phil. He already knew the offense with no learning curve. He has experience and he gave them the best chance of beating the teams on the schedule. We were in 2 of the three games until the final drive.

Leonard played very well today, but IMO he was not ready to put the team on his shoulders to get us in the playoffs.

That is what happened to AR. He was rushed into it and failed I am glad they haven't rushed RL. That was a mistake with AR and I hope the coaches have learned. The kid probably has a future but he won't if he is put under to much pressure right out of the gate.

We did't have much of a chance to make the playoff once Daniel went down,
maybe even before that. Everyone bitching about Phil not getting the wins. Can you imagine that kid getting all that thrown at him if he didn't win. Yea some will say we would have understood. But there would be a lot of people trashing him and saying he should have never been drafted.

The Colts did the right thing in my mind.

I like Riley a lot. Loved it when he was drafted. But he is not ready yet and ANYONE wanting to rush him in there needs to take a step back and think about the entire situation.

[ChoppedWood]

What Carlie Irsay Gordon is saying is that we won’t fire the pilot after a wing falls off the plane at 35.000 feet.

The plane manufacturer sucks ass. Every fucking year the plane he builds has the wing fall off, and typically the engines catch fire first, the shitter explodes mid flight, and the pilots are asleep at the wheel because they were drunk off their ass when they boarded the plane.

Do you not see the fucking recurring pattern with what shitbag Ballard has built?

What will it be next year, the turf in LOS turns out to be made of toxic chemicals and all our players have Lupus????

Dude, every year it's some fucking dramatic collapse of shit with this fucking moron----- EVERY FUCKING YEAR!

[Puck]

The plane manufacturer sucks ass. Every fucking year the plane he builds has the wing fall off, and typically the engines catch fire first, the shitter explodes mid flight, and the pilots are asleep at the wheel because they were drunk off their ass when they boarded the plane.

Do you not see the fucking recurring pattern with what shitbag Ballard has built?

What will it be next year, the turf in LOS turns out to be made of toxic chemicals and all our players have Lupus????

Dude, every year it's some fucking dramatic collapse of shit with this fucking moron----- EVERY FUCKING YEAR!

Honest question. Do you think that Jim had any influence on the way CB built the team? The way he used FA? Who he drafted?

[ChoppedWood]

Honest question. Do you think that Jim had any influence on the way CB built the team? The way he used FA? Who he drafted?

Really really really interesting question. I can't say that I am confident in an answer one way or another.

I think Jim was definitely a shit stirrer. I am confident the Saturday debacle was Jim just being so fucking pissed he just made a desperate reach to something he personally trusted- which to me is a sign Ballard should have been canned right then and there due to a lack of trust.

In terms of team design though, I am not sure I go there too much. Jim clearly loved the fireworks and gonzo offense and I think he put Polian in a position where he was challenged to field a defense that could hold up because so much of the money went to Peyton and co. So looking at it from that prism, perhaps he and Ballard had more of a relationship where Ballard convinced him we needed to be more balanced and focused on the big uglies to compete in today's NFL- the whole build from the inside out model he always espoused.

I think Ballard is a cocky fuck that isn't good at identifying football players. I look at a guy like Cignetti- dude could give no fucks if you ran a 4.2 or benched 590 20 times- he gives a fuck whether or not you love to beat the shit out of people and think that the only fucking thing that is fun, is putting pads on and getting into a fucking physical war. Instead my read is Ballard is obsessed with your fucking metrics and your character assessment. So, when it comes time to just line up 22 fucking dudes, we frequently find that the 22 dudes on the other side, they are just better football players than our 22, which then extends well into the 30-40, and even 50 players on the roster. I think our "back end" roster guys are typically very very low quality football players, whereas when I watch other teams, I don't always look at their 2nd, 3rd tiers and see guys that just BLOW at the game of football.

We were really good early in the year. A lot of his high metrics guys were on the field. But he doesn't have very many of them, so when they go down, well the quality of play just immediately begins to dramatically decline because he hasn't assembled enough of them. I see other teams that still look good even when a couple "stars" go down, we sure as fuck don't though.

[Oldcolt]

This franchise is just stagnant and continues to be

[Thorgrim]

The plane manufacturer sucks ass. Every fucking year the plane he builds has the wing fall off, and typically the engines catch fire first, the shitter explodes mid flight, and the pilots are asleep at the wheel because they were drunk off their ass when they boarded the plane.

Do you not see the fucking recurring pattern with what shitbag Ballard has built?

What will it be next year, the turf in LOS turns out to be made of toxic chemicals and all our players have Lupus????

Dude, every year it's some fucking dramatic collapse of shit with this fucking moron----- EVERY FUCKING YEAR!

Rofl. I needed this. Comedy gold even though you failed to mention the stewardesses were required to wear flat billed caps!

[ChoppedWood]

Rofl. I needed this. Comedy gold even though you failed to mention the stewardesses were required to wear flat billed caps!

Fucking love it!

[YDFL Commish]

I know that nobody wants to hear this. But both Ballard and Steichen are being graded on this season, and this season only.

The sins of the father were not taken into account.

[Oldcolt]

I know that nobody wants to hear this. But both Ballard and Steichen are being graded on this season, and this season only.

The sins of the father were not taken into account.

If this is true we have a moron for an owner and are fucked until well after I am pushing up tulips. Let's look at this year. Injuries supposedly destroyed us. Why? Lack of back up talent in all positions except offensive line. Why on earth would that be an issue with this team? Just look at the last 5 years of drafting. That is where back ups come from. And Ballard drafted every one of them. So the gamble going forward is the first 8 games are actually who we are and we will be mostly injury free n 2026. Worst collapse in NFL history and we bring everyone back. Responsibility lies with bad luck I guess.

[Kray007]

If this is true we have a moron for an owner and are fucked until well after I am pushing up tulips. Let's look at this year. Injuries supposedly destroyed us. Why? Lack of back up talent in all positions except offensive line. Why on earth would that be an issue with this team? Just look at the last 5 years of drafting. That is where back ups come from. And Ballard drafted every one of them. So the gamble going forward is the first 8 games are actually who we are and we will be mostly injury free n 2026. Worst collapse in NFL history and we bring everyone back. Responsibility lies with bad luck I guess.

Okay, name a team that’s deep enough to excel at Corner when the first 3 guys on the depth chart go down?
How many survive intact when they lose their best D’Lineman?
Have you checked out the Chief’s Offense since Mahomes and Minshew bit the dust?
How many survive the loss of a starting bookend Tackle without missing a beat? What happens when both first string Tackles go down and they have to cobble together a line out of spit and baling wire?

[Mr. Session]

If this is true we have a moron for an owner and are fucked until well after I am pushing up tulips. Let's look at this year. Injuries supposedly destroyed us. Why? Lack of back up talent in all positions except offensive line. Why on earth would that be an issue with this team? Just look at the last 5 years of drafting. That is where back ups come from. And Ballard drafted every one of them. So the gamble going forward is the first 8 games are actually who we are and we will be mostly injury free n 2026. Worst collapse in NFL history and we bring everyone back. Responsibility lies with bad luck I guess.

I suspect it is true. I suspect ownership is more comfortable with Ballard working to the end of the contract given what they allowed him to do with draft capital this year. I wouldn't be surprised if they still let him go even if they have a decent year next year (what a fantasy that would be.)

I saw someone state this on Reddit and I think it's true; This team is rotten to the core. It very well may be 5-10 years before we see anything change. My dad will be closer to 100 at that point if we still have him (God willing); I hope it doesn't take that long.

[albany ed]

The Socials are exploding in rage at this. With good reason. We are rewarding failure, over and over and over again.

I guess Carlie is just another Irsay. All sincere talk, no real action.

[Oldcolt]

Okay, name a team that’s deep enough to excel at Corner when the first 3 guys on the depth chart go down?
How many survive intact when they lose their best D’Lineman?
Have you checked out the Chief’s Offense since Mahomes and Minshew bit the dust?
How many survive the loss of a starting bookend Tackle without missing a beat? What happens when both first string Tackles go down and they have to cobble together a line out of spit and baling wire?

Again the best thing you can say is 'he had injuries to deal with'. Unlike other teams. Nobody ever lists all the fabulous players Ballard has drafted, the depth he has given this team or the incredible culture of winning he has developed. Nope. His best (and apparently only) defense is injuries.

If you are looking for a team that was injured but still survived and did well look no further than the 49ers. Lost Aiyuk for the season, Trent Williams (all pro tackle), Ricky Pearsall, linebackers Dee Winters (ankle) and Tatum Bethune (groin) , with Fred Warner (ankle) and Nick Bosa (knee) already out for the season and to top it off Brock Purdy missed 6 games with a toe (While our boy Jones missed 4) . They finished 12-5 without excuses.Imagine that.

[ChoppedWood]

Again the best thing you can say is 'he had injuries to deal with'. Unlike other teams. Nobody ever lists all the fabulous players Ballard has drafted, the depth he has given this team or the incredible culture of winning he has developed. Nope. His best (and apparently only) defense is injuries.

If you are looking for a team that was injured but still survived and did well look no further than the 49ers. Lost Aiyuk for the season, Trent Williams (all pro tackle), Ricky Pearsall, linebackers Dee Winters (ankle) and Tatum Bethune (groin) , with Fred Warner (ankle) and Nick Bosa (knee) already out for the season and to top it off Brock Purdy missed 6 games with a toe (While our boy Jones missed 4) . They finished 12-5 without excuses.Imagine that.

I have played this card a few different times, yet to see any good counters to the play either. It's as if some don't accept the premise that it is his JOB to make sure we are good enough when adversity hits. Instead to some he is only gauged on how good he is when EVERY condition is primed for success. He isn't paid whatever millions of dollars to be successful when the temperature is 74, it is a cloudless day, humidity is 3% and the bar tender is 24 with a beautiful smile and an endless bottle of tequila. His JOB is to build something that can manufacture success when it is -12, the wind is blowing 60 miles and hour, there are predictions of a biblical avalanche and the only liquor left is a 1/4 full pint of McCormicks vodka.

I just don't get it, I really don't. By any meaningful assessment his tenure here has been a massive fucking failure yet some are applauding bringing him back. Me, yeah I don't expect we will suddenly have 74, sun, low humidity and a bombshell bar tender next year (which is apparently the belief among his supporters), that's a very rare thing in the NFL where the only certainty is if you play long enough, you won't play.

[Puck]

https://x.com/Colts_Law/status/2008199361075757070?s=20

Lawrence Owen
@Colts_Law
The teams the 49ers beat without their starting QB:
Saints
Rams (OT)
Cards
Falcons
Giants

They lost to almost every winning teams they faced during that span.

Quit giving me the #49ers as an excuse of why Ballard should have been fired.

[Oldcolt]

Wasn’t doing that. Was answering a question give to me to name a team with injuries as bad as ours that didn’t fold. Making it seem like injuries are an totally valid excuse. I had to search to see if he was correct and then came up with 49ers. I think and thought Ballard should go because of Ballards resume period. And furthermore please explain to this dullard why the fuck showing that other GMs are able to navigate injuries while ours can’t is somehow illegitimate.

[IndyNorm]

Something I read in one of the RATS articles that I didn't realize is that a majority of our high prices vets are set to become UFAs after the '26 season: Defo, MPJ, Nelson, JT, Grover, and Kenny Moore. So kinda makes sense to tie Ballard and SS to that. If things don't work out next year then you can give the new GM a pretty clean slate to work with.

[Kray007]

Again the best thing you can say is 'he had injuries to deal with'. Unlike other teams. Nobody ever lists all the fabulous players Ballard has drafted, the depth he has given this team or the incredible culture of winning he has developed. Nope. His best (and apparently only) defense is injuries.

If you are looking for a team that was injured but still survived and did well look no further than the 49ers. Lost Aiyuk for the season, Trent Williams (all pro tackle), Ricky Pearsall, linebackers Dee Winters (ankle) and Tatum Bethune (groin) , with Fred Warner (ankle) and Nick Bosa (knee) already out for the season and to top it off Brock Purdy missed 6 games with a toe (While our boy Jones missed 4) . They finished 12-5 without excuses.Imagine that.

If Brock Purdy’s replacement had been a practice squad refugee, they wouldn’t have sniffed the playoffs. If the Colts hadn’t finished vs 6 straight 11 win teams, they might have.

[Oldcolt]

If Brock Purdy’s replacement had been a practice squad refugee, they wouldn’t have sniffed the playoffs. If the Colts hadn’t finished vs 6 straight 11 win teams, they might have.

Damn I wonder who is responsible for that?

[Kray007]

Again the best thing you can say is 'he had injuries to deal with'. Unlike other teams. Nobody ever lists all the fabulous players Ballard has drafted, the depth he has given this team or the incredible culture of winning he has developed. Nope. His best (and apparently only) defense is injuries.

If you are looking for a team that was injured but still survived and did well look no further than the 49ers. Lost Aiyuk for the season, Trent Williams (all pro tackle), Ricky Pearsall, linebackers Dee Winters (ankle) and Tatum Bethune (groin) , with Fred Warner (ankle) and Nick Bosa (knee) already out for the season and to top it off Brock Purdy missed 6 games with a toe (While our boy Jones missed 4) . They finished 12-5 without excuses.Imagine that.

You keep saying San Francisco, San Francisco, San Francisco, and I say Kansas City, whose offense withered and died without Mahomes and Minshew. I say the Bengals who managed 1 win without Burrow. I say the Ravens who managed 13 points in their first 2 games without Lamar Jackson. I say Minnesota who, without JJ McCarthy managed 2 wins…1 against a wretched Browns team and one vs a Joe Burrow’less Bengals.

If Jones had never broken his leg, if he’d never gone down for the season, the Colts would have been a lot more competitive. Given they lost 5 of their last 7 games by a cumulative 16 points, it’s not unreasonable to imagine that they might have finished with 13 wins…even with all the injuries at other spots.

[Oldcolt]

I shouldn't get into the trees with folks about Ballard. He isn't a horrific GM and was excellent to start with so many of his moves can be seen and are very good moves. My bottom line is that a decade of not being able to produce a winning team should be enough. It isn't and we will be back here next year again watching the playoffs I fear. He isn't a winner in this long and now is going to lead us to the promise land. I hope so but man it is a hard sell.

[YDFL Commish]

Would you rather have Chris Grier?

[ChoppedWood]

Would you rather have Chris Grier?

I would say yes, but I would also have more confidence in Dam's asshole making personnel decisions than I would Chris Ballard.

On another note, ol' boy Shane, it's pretty interesting to see him getting a hall pass despite repeatedly demonstrating the ability to coach with any form of sustained success. He is 7-22 against teams with a winning record, and 3 of those 7 came in the month of September so absolutely not in the throws of a pressurized playoff vice.

Dacich had an interesting observation about the incredible ability to look the other way for Shane. Jim Caldwell (who I am no fan of FWIW) made it to the SB. Peyton Manning was out a year, terrible season, Jim was terminated; because injuries are not an excuse- Carlie even said so, while of course giving Shane a pass because of "adversity".

Man this organization just needs to be blown the hell up.

[rm1369]

I shouldn't get into the trees with folks about Ballard. He isn't a horrific GM and was excellent to start with so many of his moves can be seen and are very good moves. My bottom line is that a decade of not being able to produce a winning team should be enough. It isn't and we will be back here next year again watching the playoffs I fear. He isn't a winner in this long and now is going to lead us to the promise land. I hope so but man it is a hard sell.

He’s not a horrible GM, he’s mediocre. He gives guys like Kray just enough ammunition to convince themselves and others it’s someone else’s fault (Reich, Irsay) or it’s bad luck. And many will tell you how it could be worse, so better not make a change. To me it can’t get much worse than the mediocrity. I’d rather they be bad honestly. 8-9 or 9-8 every year sucks. Watching teams in our division beat us, bottom out, rebuild, and beat us again sucks.

Sadly it makes sense to bring Ballard and Stechein back next year. Should be the last run for them though - short of a true contender run. And like you, I don’t see it with this team.

[Oldcolt]

Would you rather have Chris Grier?

So I am supposed to be scared to let Ballard go because it might get worse? I don't believe you think this is a reason to keep Ballard. We both know it is tough to win when you are afraid to lose.

[IndyNorm]

He’s not a horrible GM, he’s mediocre. He gives guys like Kray just enough ammunition to convince themselves and others it’s someone else’s fault (Reich, Irsay) or it’s bad luck. And many will tell you how it could be worse, so better not make a change. To me it can’t get much worse than the mediocrity. I’d rather they be bad honestly. 8-9 or 9-8 every year sucks. Watching teams in our division beat us, bottom out, rebuild, and beat us again sucks.

Sadly it makes sense to bring Ballard and Stechein back next year. Should be the last run for them though - short of a true contender run. And like you, I don’t see it with this team.

The Irsay stuff is weird. Maybe there's some actual evidence of it other than message board speculation, but if Jim had been meddlesome to the point that he was preventing Ballard from doing his job then you would think Ballard would have bailed.

[Oldcolt]

The Irsay stuff is weird. Maybe there's some actual evidence of it other than message board speculation, but if Jim had been meddlesome to the point that he was preventing Ballard from doing his job then you would think Ballard would have bailed.

if Ballard truly did this happily for 9 years then that is who he is, and that isn't a dynamic leader in the least, more like a toady. I do not believe for a minute Ballard was or is that weak.

[rm1369]

The Irsay stuff is weird. Maybe there's some actual evidence of it other than message board speculation, but if Jim had been meddlesome to the point that he was preventing Ballard from doing his job then you would think Ballard would have bailed.

I do not at all believe Jim held Ballard back in FA. It’s been clear by words and actions what Ballards philosophy is. He’s told us since day one and he’s mostly followed it. The change this offseason was strictly him feeling the pressure from fans and ownership.

The one thing I concede MAY have been Irsay was starting AR so early. This team has completely fucked up any chance at developing him. AR obviously owns some responsibility but I tend to blame the team more. Ballard has stated he doesn’t believe in veteran leadership and mentoring and I believe that is exactly what AR needed. so even if he was forced to start AR by Irsay, I blame him for not bringing in a true veteran mentor for AR

Relying on your coaches and then hiring soft ass players coaches is a big part of this teams issue. They are soft, lack accountability, and there is no leadership in the locker room. And Ballard has told us he believes the coaches set the culture. It’s one of the first things he said that let me know this team was fucked. And he followed through with his actions.

[Kray007]

Damn I wonder who is responsible for that?

Chris Ballard had a backup plan…Anthony Richardson. What he didn’t have, what no team has, is a high quality option at number three, much less four, on the depth chart.

[Colts And Orioles]

I would say yes, but I would also have more confidence in Dam's asshole making personnel decisions than I would Chris Ballard.






o


You also said that you wanted Jonathan Taylor to immediately be cut from the team, and replaced with the hair around your asshole.




o


Who exactly would you to propose to replace Jonathan Taylor with after you cut him ???

o







The hair around my asshole !!! In other words, I don't give a fuck, just not him !!!









If the Irsays took your prudent and well-conceived advice, the Colts would have the hair around your asshole taking handoffs from Daniel Jones, and they would have Dam's asshole pulling the strings as the GM ...... at that rate, the franchise might win about 5 games over the next 3 years combined.

o

[albany ed]

o


You also said that you wanted Jonathan Taylor to immediately be cut from the team, and replaced with the hair around your asshole.











If the Irsays took your prudent and well-conceived advice, the Colts would have the hair around your asshole taking handoffs from Daniel Jones, and they would have Dam's asshole pulling the strings as the GM ...... at that rate, the franchise might win about 5 games over the next 3 years combined.

o


Not taking sides in this bitch session, but that last part of your post made me laugh. "look at that hair, dragging two clingons for an extra 5 yards!"

[Kray007]

Not taking sides in this bitch session, but that last part of your post made me laugh. "look at that hair, dragging two clingons for an extra 5 yards!"

As long as the Clingons weren’t armed with bat’leths, we’d be fine.

[ChoppedWood]

o


You also said that you wanted Jonathan Taylor to immediately be cut from the team, and replaced with the hair around your asshole.











If the Irsays took your prudent and well-conceived advice, the Colts would have the hair around your asshole taking handoffs from Daniel Jones, and they would have Dam's asshole pulling the strings as the GM ...... at that rate, the franchise might win about 5 games over the next 3 years combined.

o

If they had taken my advice, we would have had a better GM, coach, and numerous better players this year, and we would be in the playoffs. At some point you have to just give up on shit that doesn't work. What we have, doesn't work.

[albany ed]

If they had taken my advice, we would have had a better GM, coach, and numerous better players this year, and we would be in the playoffs. At some point you have to just give up on shit that doesn't work. What we have, doesn't work.

CW, PM me your real name and contact info and I'll write a letter to Carlie, recommending you for the position as her advisor on all personnel matters.

[ChoppedWood]

CW, PM me your real name and contact info and I'll write a letter to Carlie, recommending you for the position as her advisor on all personnel matters.

I don't meet the pre-requisites for the position:

"The ideal candidate will already have pictures of me giving them BJ's"


...there can be no other logical answer.

[Colts And Orioles]

If they had taken my advice ......





o


The franchise would not exist within 5 years ....... your imbecilic, raging demands make Robert Irsay look like a cool, calm, collected gatekeeper.

o

[Kray007]

o


The franchise would not exist within 5 years ....... your imbecilic, raging demands make Robert Irsay look like a cool, calm, collected gatekeeper.

o

Bob, I remember him well.

On the other end of the competency spectrum, I think it was Bill Parcells who commented that the fastest road to mediocrity in football was listening to your fan base.

[Oldcolt]

JT disappeared the last half of the year, both running and blocking. I know it wasn't his fault, it is never anyones fault. We lost 8 games in a row and zero people are held responsible. Shit just happens to this franchise. Next year we will be more urgent (begs the question of what the fuck we were this year and why nobody is held accountable for it). These guys just didn't try hard enough last year (somehow nobody gets fired), next year they are gonna. I am sure that a winning/accountable culture will spontaneously arrive for us.

[Oldcolt]

Bob, I remember him well.

On the other end of the competency spectrum, I think it was Bill Parcells who commented that the fastest road to mediocrity in football was listening to your fan base.

I had no idea the Colts listened to their fan base so closely

[Colts And Orioles]

Robert Irsay, I remember him well.

On the other end of the competency spectrum, I think it was Bill Parcells who commented that the fastest road to mediocrity in football was listening to your fan base.











I had no idea that the Colts listened to their fan base so closely.





o


The Colts don't listen to their fan-base ...... at all ...... not even in the slightest.

Kray was not insinuating that the Colts listened to their fan-base ....... he was pointing out the fact that if the Colts did listen to their fan-base, they would make the Jets and the Browns look like model franchises.

o

[Oldcolt]

It was sarcasm. Parcells stated that you better not listen to your fan base otherwise you will become mediocre. We have been the defiition of mediocre the last decade, hence I was being sarcastic by insinuating we must be listening to the fan base because we are so mediocre.

As long as we are quoting Parcells I think his most famous and often repeated quote of his is "You are what your record says you are".

[ChoppedWood]

o


he was pointing out the fact that if the Colts did listen to their fan-base, they would make the Jets and the Browns look like model franchises.

o

I would absolutely prefer to be either the Browns or the Jets right fucking now. They both have looked at the status quo and said fuck this- this isn't acceptable. At least they are positioned to try to do something different to change the trajectory of the team. But hey, hopeium is also a fucking great alternative!

[ChoppedWood]

o


Your constant psychotic rages and inane demands make Robert Irsay look like a Hall-of-Fame owner.

o

Give me a raging red nosed sponged liver psychopath demanding fucking results vs this wishy washy, participation trophies are great, bullshit we have now.

How can you not see this, how can you not recognize that we are in the literal WORST of all NFL positions. We aren't in the playoffs, we don't have a high pick, and we don't even have a first rounder.

Why in the FUCK do you and others seemingly relish in being mediocre for the sake of being mediocre?

Several have asked the question, no one, including you, answer- WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT TAKE, WHEN IS ENOUGH SUCKING--- ENOUGH SUCKING????

[albany ed]

I don't meet the pre-requisites for the position:

"The ideal candidate will already have pictures of me giving them BJ's"


...there can be no other logical answer.

O come on now, can't we narrow it down better than that? ;)

[albany ed]

I would absolutely prefer to be either the Browns or the Jets right fucking now. They both have looked at the status quo and said fuck this- this isn't acceptable. At least they are positioned to try to do something different to change the trajectory of the team. But hey, hopeium is also a fucking great alternative!

CW, 1969. That's the last time the Jets were in a Super Bowl. And the Browns? They're envious of that. They've been trying to change the trajectory of the team for 57 fucking years in one case and eternity in the other. You can start rooting for them right now. They're used to unhappy fans. You'll fit right in.

[ChoppedWood]

CW, 1969. That's the last time the Jets were in a Super Bowl. And the Browns? They're envious of that. They've been trying to change the trajectory of the team for 57 fucking years in one case and eternity in the other. You can start rooting for them right now. They're used to unhappy fans. You'll fit right in.

I said right now, nothing to do with the past. Right now, absolutely give me the position of either the Jets or the Browns. Jets are going to get a chance to draft a potential super star at QB and they have a stockpile of high picks to help him with.

The Browns have the best defensive end in the game, possibly history, and could look to complement him with another demon edge rusher in Bane to create a duo that would terrorize QB's or they could go get a stud WR like Lemon, or even get Love at RB. All pieces that could be massive pieces for their future.

We, we on the other hand will be watching day 1, and we're most likely not going to be able to get "the best defensive player in the draft (cocky chortle, cocky chortle, flat bill flip)". No, instead, in the mid 2nd round, we'll probably go kicker since our kicking group is questionable going into next year- great chance to shore that up with a 2nd round pick.

[ChoppedWood]

o


Look in the mirror ...... you just described yourself and your behavior to a tee.

o

Yeah man, you know me sooooooo well C&O.

[YDFL Commish]

Jets are going to get a chance to draft a potential super star at QB and they have a stockpile of high picks to help

Hylerbole! Other than Mendoza (and I'm lukewarm on him), I don't see a superstar QB.

[ChoppedWood]

Hylerbole! Other than Mendoza (and I'm lukewarm on him), I don't see a superstar QB.

"potential"

Mendoza to me looks every bit the part of the modern NFL QB. Big, smart, able to use his legs, workhorse, tough, accurate, and the fucker just throws the ball where it needs to be in big moments- which is a HUGE part of the NFL game. His clutch plays against not just Penn State, but Oregon and Iowa- that is a gamer.

Moore, I am not as high on him as most but I definitely see the NFL caliber throws from him.

[Colts And Orioles]

I said right now, nothing to do with the past. Right now, absolutely give me the position of either the Jets or the Browns. The Jets are going to get a chance to draft a potential super star at QB and they have a stockpile of high picks to help him with.




o


The Jets and the Browns are not in a position of getting high draft choices by design. They are in their respective positions because they have been terribly run franchises. If the Colts had been run like either of those franchises for the past 15 years, you would probably get a gun and murder the entire Irsay family ........ and I'm only slightly exaggerating.

I seriously doubt that you would be posting about how happy you are that the Colts were about to draft Fernando Mendoza if they had the resume of the Jets for the past 15 years, and I doubt that you would be contented and thinking that it's a damned good thing that the Colts have been terrible for that long because at least it's better than being a team with a mediocre record that isn't getting high draft picks.

You can assert that you would rather be in the position of the Jets because there is a good chance that they will draft a potential superstar quarterback, but that allegation is fantasy ...... it's nothing more than a claim based on a red-herring.

o

[ChoppedWood]

o


The Jets and the Browns are not in a position of getting high draft choices by design. They are in their respective positions because they have been terribly run franchises. If the Colts had been run like either of those franchises for the past 15 years, you would probably get a gun and murder the entire Irsay family ........ and I'm only slightly exaggerating.

I seriously doubt that you would be posting about how happy you are that the Colts were about to draft Fernando Mendoza if they had the resume of the Jets for the past 15 years, and I doubt that you would be contented and thinking that it's a damned good thing that the Colts have been terrible for that long because at least it's better than being a team with a mediocre record that isn't getting high draft picks.

You can assert that you would rather be in the position of the Jets because there is a good chance that they will draft a potential superstar quarterback, but that allegation is fantasy ...... it's nothing more than a claim based on a red-herring.

o

Again, you bring the fucking context of the past into this, not me. Right now, fuck yes sign me up for either of their positions vs ours. Yes, absolutely! We are fucking STUCK in purgatory with incompetent PROVEN losers running the org. Great, great shit! Can't wait til next year when a half legged QB, a broken neck DT, another aging and likely to decline DT, a 2nd round JAG DE, an empty CB slot, and a cast of other non-impact players lead us to a big bad ass 7-10 or 8-9 record for the 275th year in a row. Whoopy, so exciting!

[Colts And Orioles]

Again, you bring the fucking context of the past into this, not me.





o


Well, then you'll be hard-pressed to find people to take what you say seriously.

The Colts, the Jets, and the Browns didn't just morph into existence last month, and you didn't just starting rooting for the Colts last week.

You apparently get some satisfaction by behaving like an incorrigible malcontent. Enjoy your fantasy, whatever that is.

o

[ChoppedWood]

o



The Colts, the Jets, and the Browns didn't just morph into existence last month, and you didn't just starting rooting for the Colts last week.



o

No fucking idea, none, what in the fuck this has to do with anything? Not a single fucking thing about the past history of these teams is applicable to whether I would want to be sitting in either the Jets or the Browns positions RIGHT NOW, at the end of the 2025 season vs that of the Colts. Sometimes man you just go to weird dots that don't connect.

[Colts And Orioles]

No fucking idea, none, what in the fuck this has to do with anything? Not a single fucking thing about the past history of these teams is applicable to whether I would want to be sitting in either the Jets or the Browns positions RIGHT NOW, at the end of the 2025 season vs that of the Colts. Sometimes man you just go to weird dots that don't connect.





o


You need me to spell it out for you like you're a 5 year-old ??? OK. I'll do just that.

Almost all of your posts are psychotic rages about Chris Ballard's failures over the past 9 years as the Colts' GM ...... that is very much about the past. Then in your next breath, you say that you would rather be in the position of the Jets ...... and when I point out that the Jets have been a dumpster fire of a franchise for almost 15 years, and that they didn't get to be in their current position out of design, you say, "No, that's in the past !!! I'm not talking about the past !!! I'm talking about right now !!!"

That is what a child does ...... he makes incessant, non-stop complaints about one team's GM's doings over the past 9 years, and then he asserts that he would rather be in the position of another team whose GM's have done nothing but run their franchise into the ground for well for almost 15 years ...... if you're too stupid to follow and comprehend that very simple logic, then you're a bigger imbecile than I thought that you were in the first place.


o

[ChoppedWood]

o


You need me to spell it out for you like you're a 5 year-old ??? OK. I'll do just that.

Almost all of your posts are psychotic rages about Chris Ballard's failures over the past 9 years as the Colts' GM ...... that is very much about the past. Then in your next breath, you say that you would rather be in the position of the Jets ...... and when I point out that the Jets have been a dumpster fire of a franchise for almost 15 years, and that they didn't get to be in their current position out of design, you say, "No, that's in the past !!! I'm not talking about the past !!! I'm talking about right now !!!"

That is what a child does ...... he makes incessant, non-stop complaints about one team's GM's doings over the past 9 years, and then he asserts that he would rather be in the position of another team whose GM's have done nothing but run their franchise into the ground for well for almost 15 years ...... if you're too stupid to follow and comprehend that very simple logic, then you're a bigger imbecile than I thought that you were in the first place.


o

And all of that has what connection go whether or not, on 1/7/26, I would prefer to be in the Browns or Jets position than I would the Indianapolis Colts?

Past success, past mediocrity, no bearing whatsoever on where we stand in terms of prospects for the future at this moment in time. The Browns may get John Harbaugh. Would I rather be the Browns, with John Harbaugh and Myles Garret vs Shane Steichen and Latu Latu, oh hell yes I would. Again, the question is about TODAY, not the 1947 Kentucky Shiners that morphed into the Oakland Truckers in 1965, and then were bought by the Memphis Steelers in 1971 where Crankston Moore fumbled at the goal line just like Jonathan Taylor but they went on to win the SB in 1987 so the Colts will win the SB too.

[Oldcolt]

This thread has become insane.

[albany ed]

No fucking idea, none, what in the fuck this has to do with anything? Not a single fucking thing about the past history of these teams is applicable to whether I would want to be sitting in either the Jets or the Browns positions RIGHT NOW, at the end of the 2025 season vs that of the Colts. Sometimes man you just go to weird dots that don't connect.

Here you go CW:

https://forums.theganggreen.com/threads/“i-promise-you-no-single-player-in-this-draft-wants-to-be-a-new-york-jet-”.101230/

I promise, you won't be missed here.

[Oldcolt]

Hey CW. Don't even think about leaving.

[ChoppedWood]

Hey CW. Don't even think about leaving.

Ha, hell no. To me, this is why CF's is the place to be, open, hard ass, no frills fucking conversation. This is the way fans should be allowed to go at it vs so many of the other places that are so sanitized it's ludicrous.

[ChoppedWood]

o


He won't leave. Raging, narcissistic psychopaths who spend a good portion of their lives showing everybody how insane they are never voluntarily leave a platform ...... so you can rest easy, and know that his inane, nonsensical outbursts will keep showing up here.

o

On November 3, 1965, at 4:13 PM, ChoppedWood mailed a letter to Carroll Rosenbloom demanding the team play a damn running back at QB. This was a letter from a psychopath with an insane demand. However, the team then faked injuries to both Johnny U and Gary Cuozzo so that the man that wrote love letters to Chopped's mother asking her if she would sell him Chopped Wood because he knew he was a football savant, Tom Matte, could play for the team in the final 3 games of the season beating the Packers in the playoffs. It is a remarkable moment in NFL history.

On the same day, November 3, 2025, exactly 60 years later, Emmett Johnson, of the Arizona Wildcats scored a 3 yard rushing touchdown. 10 people in Tucson drank beers together that afternoon.

[Puck]

This thread has become insane.

Yes very tiring to see every thread over run with the same arguments
Blah Blah Blah


It's getting old fellas

[Puck]

My opinion on the decision to keep both

Much like I have said that, while i really like Riley. He is not ready to be the starter He may be some day, but not yet, especially if DJ is on the team.

I don't think CIG was prepared either. She is not her Dad and I am guessing she does not have the connections that Jim had, not the knowledge he has gained through all his years in the business.

She took over the team in June ish. So up until now she has been in her present role for about 7 months. And she was dealing with the passing of her father, his estate etc. Don't care if your a billionaire or living paycheck to paycheck That is a lot

She has had to concentrate her attention to this season. I promise none of us could have taken on that responsibility and still been able to work on a list of possible replacements for either CB or SS.

She saw the quick start and saw that this is a team that can win now and is not far off from serious contention. So her attention stayed with continuing on the early success the team had.

She was all in on the Sauce trade, Which made sense. To me anyway, because this was the Jim chips all in season. Still had a chance to make the playoffs. Brought in Rivers Hoping he could get us there. AR was down, and they just hadn't seen enough in the kid to put it all on him. AND he was injured as well. That is a lot of adversity. They took a shot and had a chance to win against the Seahawks and Jax Both went to the last minute.

Injuries killed this team this yr. Injuries are not an excuse but they are a reason (not sure where I read that but it makes sense)

Could she have fired everyone? Sure, should've she? No IMO But what if because she didn't have a plan she made a huge mistake? Fire them and she can't find good replacements. No 1st rd picks for 2 years. Who wants that? A rookie GM and a Rookie HC most likely

Like Riley. She wasn't ready for all this on her plate, all at once.

She could have went by the way of her Grandpa Bob, or Chopped or Dickitch (all the same to me). And fired off of impulse without a plan. But she's smarter than that.

I'm OK to give her a mulligan this yr. She will have much more time to establish her rolodex and be prepared next year if needed.

No matter what I am supporting her and the Colts.

[Oldcolt]

My opinion on the decision to keep both

Much like I have said that, while i really like Riley. He is not ready to be the starter He may be some day, but not yet, especially if DJ is on the team.

I don't think CIG was prepared either. She is not her Dad and I am guessing she does not have the connections that Jim had, not the knowledge he has gained through all his years in the business.

She took over the team in June ish. So up until now she has been in her present role for about 7 months. And she was dealing with the passing of her father, his estate etc. Don't care if your a billionaire or living paycheck to paycheck That is a lot

She has had to concentrate her attention to this season. I promise none of us could have taken on that responsibility and still been able to work on a list of possible replacements for either CB or SS.

She saw the quick start and saw that this is a team that can win now and is not far off from serious contention. So her attention stayed with continuing on the early success the team had.

She was all in on the Sauce trade, Which made sense. To me anyway, because this was the Jim chips all in season. Still had a chance to make the playoffs. Brought in Rivers Hoping he could get us there. AR was down, and they just hadn't seen enough in the kid to put it all on him. AND he was injured as well. That is a lot of adversity. They took a shot and had a chance to win against the Seahawks and Jax Both went to the last minute.

Injuries killed this team this yr. Injuries are not an excuse but they are a reason (not sure where I read that but it makes sense)

Could she have fired everyone? Sure, should've she? No IMO But what if because she didn't have a plan she made a huge mistake? Fire them and she can't find good replacements. No 1st rd picks for 2 years. Who wants that? A rookie GM and a Rookie HC most likely

Like Riley. She wasn't ready for all this on her plate, all at once.

She could have went by the way of her Grandpa Bob, or Chopped or Dickitch (all the same to me). And fired off of impulse without a plan. But she's smarter than that.

I'm OK to give her a mulligan this yr. She will have much more time to establish her rolodex and be prepared next year if needed.

No matter what I am supporting her and the Colts.

Well fuck me, a rational thought out answer that has swayed how I think. At least about this decision, I still think Ballard should go but appreciate that she may not have been in the best place to make this happen right now. Excellent post, wish I had thought of it

[Hoopsdoc]

Cut it out, you two.

We can’t have people making solid, logical arguments and then have other people changing their minds because of it.

Thats kooky talk.

[Kray007]

I said right now, nothing to do with the past. Right now, absolutely give me the position of either the Jets or the Browns. Jets are going to get a chance to draft a potential super star at QB and they have a stockpile of high picks to help him with.

The Browns have the best defensive end in the game, possibly history, and could look to complement him with another demon edge rusher in Bane to create a duo that would terrorize QB's or they could go get a stud WR like Lemon, or even get Love at RB. All pieces that could be massive pieces for their future.

We, we on the other hand will be watching day 1, and we're most likely not going to be able to get "the best defensive player in the draft (cocky chortle, cocky chortle, flat bill flip)". No, instead, in the mid 2nd round, we'll probably go kicker since our kicking group is questionable going into next year- great chance to shore that up with a 2nd round pick.

The Jets are going to spend the next 6 days holding their breath, fingers crossed. If Dante Moore doesn’t declare for the draft, the Raiders take Mendoza 1st, and the Jets are left dumpster diving behind Safeway, looking for a Quarterback among the wilted lettuce and moldy bread.

Ordinarily, Moore would come out, but Oregon is offering him more than $10 Million to stay, which gives him a nice payday and the chance to avoid going to the Jets, which define the word shitshow.

As far as the Colts are concerned, not having a 1st, what they have is one of the best cover Corners in the game, an upper echelon Quarterback, and are fishing in a draft deep in fast, athletic linebackers.

If Ballard reaches deep into the Irsay piggy bank and pulls out enough coin to sign (insert name of a DE you like), the team should be well positioned to excel.

[Kray007]

"potential"

Mendoza to me looks every bit the part of the modern NFL QB. Big, smart, able to use his legs, workhorse, tough, accurate, and the fucker just throws the ball where it needs to be in big moments- which is a HUGE part of the NFL game. His clutch plays against not just Penn State, but Oregon and Iowa- that is a gamer.

Moore, I am not as high on him as most but I definitely see the NFL caliber throws from him.

Yeah, but he’ll be doing it in Vegas.

[Kray007]

And all of that has what connection go whether or not, on 1/7/26, I would prefer to be in the Browns or Jets position than I would the Indianapolis Colts?

Past success, past mediocrity, no bearing whatsoever on where we stand in terms of prospects for the future at this moment in time. The Browns may get John Harbaugh. Would I rather be the Browns, with John Harbaugh and Myles Garret vs Shane Steichen and Latu Latu, oh hell yes I would. Again, the question is about TODAY, not the 1947 Kentucky Shiners that morphed into the Oakland Truckers in 1965, and then were bought by the Memphis Steelers in 1971 where Crankston Moore fumbled at the goal line just like Jonathan Taylor but they went on to win the SB in 1987 so the Colts will win the SB too.

I can’t even begin to believe that we’ve gone down this particular road.

I grew up 150 miles from the big apple. I have friends who are die hard Jet fans, and, at the end of evey year, they’re left sitting on their couch, contemplating slitting their wrists.

In case you didn’t notice, the Jets staged a fire sale two months ago, purging the roster of talent. The cupboard is bare at quarterback, defensive end, cornerback, almost every other meaningful position. They can’t rush the passer, and they can’t protect their own guy.

Sweet.

As far as the Brownies are concerned, they have the chance to land the quarterback of their choice. But by the time he’s ready to contribute, Garrett will be deep into the wrong side of 30. There’s a good reason why they’re picking 1. The Watson trade put them in a hole they’re just beginning to dig out of. Hitching your star to them is like sailing into the unknown with the captain of the Titanic at the helm.

[Kray007]

o


Actually, the last time that the Jets made it to the Super Bowl was 1968 (the 1968 season.)

Richard Nixon had just been elected as the President of the country, Denny McLain won 31 games for the Detroit Tigers, and the Beatles had just released an awesome double album which became known as ""The White Album" ...... that great band has since parted ways.

o

I still wake up in the middle of the night screaming why Earl Morrall, why. I see it clear as day, Jimmy Orr, uncovered, standing all alone at the Jets 5 yard line, no defender within 20 yards, waving his arms, frantically trying to get your attention..and you, you throw into double coverage and see the ball picked off for what seems to be the umpteeth time in a game you should have won by 20.

You drove a dagger into my dreams.

[Colts And Orioles]

I can’t even begin to believe that we’ve gone down this particular road.

I grew up 150 miles from the big apple. I have friends who are die hard Jet fans, and, at the end of every year, they’re left sitting on their couch, contemplating slitting their wrists.

In case you didn’t notice, the Jets staged a fire sale two months ago, purging the roster of talent. The cupboard is bare at quarterback, defensive end, cornerback, almost every other meaningful position. They can’t rush the passer, and they can’t protect their own guy.

Sweet.

As far as the Brownies are concerned, they have the chance to land the quarterback of their choice. But by the time he’s ready to contribute, Garrett will be deep into the wrong side of 30. There’s a good reason why they’re picking 1. The Watson trade put them in a hole they’re just beginning to dig out of. Hitching your star of them is like sailing into the unknown with the captain of the Titanic at the helm.





o


Yes, but Chopped Wood made that post 2 days ago ...... that's in the past ...... it's no longer Tuesday anymore, it's Thursday. He wants to talk about NOW, THE PRESNT, not the past. How many times does he have to keep repeating himself ???

o

[Oldcolt]

I still wake up in the middle of the night screaming why Earl Morrall, why. I see it clear as day, Jimmy Orr, uncovered, standing all alone at the Jets 5 yard line, no defender within 20 yards, waving his arms, frantically trying to get your attention..and you, you throw into double coverage and see the ball picked off for what seems to be the umpteeth time in a game you should have won by 20.

You drove a dagger into my dreams.

I threw up after that shithole of a game. First devastation as a sports fan, Colts had the so much better team

[ChoppedWood]

I can’t even begin to believe that we’ve gone down this particular road.

I grew up 150 miles from the big apple. I have friends who are die hard Jet fans, and, at the end of evey year, they’re left sitting on their couch, contemplating slitting their wrists.

In case you didn’t notice, the Jets staged a fire sale two months ago, purging the roster of talent. The cupboard is bare at quarterback, defensive end, cornerback, almost every other meaningful position. They can’t rush the passer, and they can’t protect their own guy.

Sweet.

As far as the Brownies are concerned, they have the chance to land the quarterback of their choice. But by the time he’s ready to contribute, Garrett will be deep into the wrong side of 30. There’s a good reason why they’re picking 1. The Watson trade put them in a hole they’re just beginning to dig out of. Hitching your star to them is like sailing into the unknown with the captain of the Titanic at the helm.

Great, both franchises suck, both have been atrocious at making good decisions for decades. Yep, not disputing it.

Right now, both of them are in a position to potentially land franchise changing players and COULD in a couple years be contesting for a playoff run. Note the word COULD.

I know what's in the back of your head- the 7-1 start, the 8-2 after 10, then the injury and then the downfall. We're not that far away, we can be a winner, we can get Dimes back and we can make a big run. Sure, sure, ok!

On the season, we had 2 significant wins, Denver and SD. Other than that, we beat dogshit, and we lost to EVERY other "good" team we played. Oh don't start, don't start- we were "close" in several of those games- don't start, doesn't matter- at the end of the season, we LOST those games.

In every fucking article / engagement since the season ended, the team reps have made reference to a couple of very impactful moments. One, the most frequently mentioned, the inability to stop Seattle from going down the field in SECONDS to win the game. The other, the inability to get a 1st down against KC to ice the game. Yep, two critical failures that definitely could be attributed to the failure to make the playoffs. Both of those, are representative of a coach that has REPEATEDLY demonstrated to us that he struggles enormously against good football teams. But yeah, sure, next year, sure that will all change! Sure, because yeah man, it just will!

Next year, we will have a QB dragging his leg around, our all-world DT will be using toothpicks to keep his head from falling down, and our all world RB who was healthy ALL damn year, will remain that way even though he is now in the yellow zone of 27 years of age, and his fall off at the end of the year is not in any way an indicator that his play is starting to dip. Oh, and our ALL world OG, who again was essentially healthy all year, who will be 30 years old, will stay that way again and his play will not in any way dip from what it also did late in the year.

Yep, all negative indicators, they are meaningless, because we are the Colts by God and we have bad ass Ballard and Super Star Shane guiding us, and their past results do not indicate future performance!

The greatest likelihood is next year is a 6-7 win team. We again are stuck in shitty draft order. All the brass are sent packing. We probably SUCK terribly in 27 as we shed the old guys and go full youth as we chase a real QB.

So, backing up, yes, give me either the Browns or Jets positions---- right now, with a chance to get a couple young stars in the fold and at least attempting to re-build right now, vs what I expect to be a Blah year next year, a terrible year thereafter, and probably 2 more really shitty years as we fully rebuild. So yep, I would rather be them right now than where we are at this very moment. At least they have HOPES of getting things going north vs what I believe is almost certainly an escalator down for the next 3-5 years.

I don't get it, there are some of you who have this weird aversion to accept that what we have seen from the GM for 9 years and the HC for 2, is not at all who they really are. I believe Denny Green man.

[Kray007]

Okay, this post isn’t intended to defend Steichen or Ballard or anyone or anything about the organization.

It’s a simple question sparked by the inability of the team to win against Seattle. The Seahawks get the ball with 42 seconds left and 31 seconds later, kick a winning FG.

For most the hundred year history of the league, that would have been inexplicable, considered an epic fail, a two or three time in a season occurrence.

But, has the ground shifted under our feet? Are we living in a new age, crafted by the dynamic kickoff and the league’s incessant drive to extract every last ounce of excitement from the game? How does that combine with the new rules for kicking balls that seem to be driving an explosion of what seems possible on FG attempts?

A few years ago, you would have seen teams blast a kickoff into the end zone. The result, 1st and 10 at the 20. 60 yard field goals were unheard of, anything from 50 out was a prayer. So, you had to move 50 yards in your 40 seconds.

Nowadays, teams are getting starting field position at the 35 or 40. In order to put yourself in position for a 60 plus yard FG, you might have to only move the ball 10 or 15 yards.

In those circumstances, 42 seconds is an eternity.

We saw this play out as early as week 2, when the Giants played Dallas. The Giants take the lead with 19 seconds left, Dallas moves 18 yards and Aubrey kicks a 64 yarder to send it into OT.

I think that it’s changing the way coaches use timeouts at the end of halves. We’ve gone from trying to bleed the clock on D to calling timeouts, trying to conserve every last second. Teams are getting a couple of extra plays, an extra half minute of time to score all because coaches are trying to jockey themselves into a position where they get the ball back with 30 or 40 seconds left.

I think that the result is that the importance of special teams play has just escalated. You need a kick return game that gets you to the 40. You need to stop runners from crossing the 25. You need a kicker who’s money from 60.

[IndyNorm]

If Ballard reaches deep into the Irsay piggy bank and pulls out enough coin to sign (insert name of a DE you like), the team should be well positioned to excel.

Where do you think the cap space to sign a top DE is going to come from? We currently have $34M in cap space, so will probably need to restructure/cut some guys just to bring back Jones, Pierce, Cross, and anyone else we want to keep.

[YDFL Commish]

Getting the ball at the 35 is insane! Complete 1 or 2 medium range passes, and you're in this generation's FG range.

The NFL as a league is so stupid.

[Puck]

Where do you think the cap space to sign a top DE is going to come from? We currently have $34M in cap space, so will probably need to restructure/cut some guys just to bring back Jones, Pierce, Cross, and anyone else we want to keep.

See if this helps. They can spread this out for 5 years. Maybe Sherck can better explain it. If I am reading this correctly they can pay the player up front and it will only count against the cap so much per yr.

That has been an issue in the past with liquid money from Jim. The girls have sold off a shit ton of Jim's stuff so they could be flush with cash to make thia hapen

From Grok

NFL signing bonuses are included in the team's salary cap, but they are not charged in full immediately. Instead, they are prorated (spread evenly) over the life of the contract, up to a maximum of five years.For example:A $20 million signing bonus on a four-year contract adds $5 million to the cap each year.
On a five-year (or longer) contract, it adds $4 million per year (or less if spread over five).

This proration rule comes from the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) and allows teams to manage cap space by spreading the impact, while the player typically receives the full bonus upfront. If the player is cut or traded early, the remaining prorated amount accelerates as dead money on the cap (potentially spread over two years with a post-June 1 designation).This system is widely used for restructures—converting base salary into signing bonuses to create immediate cap relief—and remains in effect as of 2025-2026 under the current CBA. Unlike roster bonuses (which often hit the cap in full in the year earned), signing bonuses benefit from this spreading mechanism.

NFL signing bonuses are typically paid to the player up front—often as a lump sum shortly after signing the contract (within days or weeks), or at minimum in installments with the bulk received quickly.This is a key reason signing bonuses are attractive to players: they get a large amount of guaranteed money immediately, while the team spreads (prorates) the salary cap impact over the contract's length (up to 5 years).In most cases, the full bonus is paid immediately or very soon after signing.
Contracts can include deferred payments or installments (e.g., part paid on signing, the rest within the first year or by the next March), but the CBA ensures significant portions are paid promptly—at least half within 12 months, with the rest by the following March 31 unless otherwise specified.
Rare exceptions exist (like some rookie deals with minor deferrals), but the standard practice is upfront payment to provide player security.

This upfront cash flow is why teams often convert base salary into signing bonuses during restructures—the player gets the money right away, creating immediate cap relief for the team.

[IndyNorm]

See if this helps. They can spread this out for 5 years. Maybe Sherck can better explain it. If I am reading this correctly they can pay the player up front and it will only count against the cap so much per yr.

That has been an issue in the past with liquid money from Jim. The girls have sold off a shit ton of Jim's stuff so they could be flush with cash to make thia hapen

From Grok

NFL signing bonuses are included in the team's salary cap, but they are not charged in full immediately. Instead, they are prorated (spread evenly) over the life of the contract, up to a maximum of five years.For example:A $20 million signing bonus on a four-year contract adds $5 million to the cap each year.
On a five-year (or longer) contract, it adds $4 million per year (or less if spread over five).

This proration rule comes from the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) and allows teams to manage cap space by spreading the impact, while the player typically receives the full bonus upfront. If the player is cut or traded early, the remaining prorated amount accelerates as dead money on the cap (potentially spread over two years with a post-June 1 designation).This system is widely used for restructures—converting base salary into signing bonuses to create immediate cap relief—and remains in effect as of 2025-2026 under the current CBA. Unlike roster bonuses (which often hit the cap in full in the year earned), signing bonuses benefit from this spreading mechanism.

NFL signing bonuses are typically paid to the player up front—often as a lump sum shortly after signing the contract (within days or weeks), or at minimum in installments with the bulk received quickly.This is a key reason signing bonuses are attractive to players: they get a large amount of guaranteed money immediately, while the team spreads (prorates) the salary cap impact over the contract's length (up to 5 years).In most cases, the full bonus is paid immediately or very soon after signing.
Contracts can include deferred payments or installments (e.g., part paid on signing, the rest within the first year or by the next March), but the CBA ensures significant portions are paid promptly—at least half within 12 months, with the rest by the following March 31 unless otherwise specified.
Rare exceptions exist (like some rookie deals with minor deferrals), but the standard practice is upfront payment to provide player security.

This upfront cash flow is why teams often convert base salary into signing bonuses during restructures—the player gets the money right away, creating immediate cap relief for the team.

I'm no Sherck, but I do know enough to be dangerous. I'm assuming it would take at least a similar type of contract as the one the Texans signed Hunter to which included a $36.8M signing bonus spread over 5 years w/ a year 1 cap hit of $20M.

I'm sure we'll have to pay Jones more than what we paid him this year ($15M cap hit), Pierce will likely get at least MPJ money ($18M cap hit in year 1), and Cross will be looking to get paid as well.

Obviously there's ways to create cap space and lower the initial cap hit from a signing, but I don't see us being able to re-sign our own and bring in a top flight DE without making some really tough cuts.

[Puck]

I'm no Sherck, but I do know enough to be dangerous. I'm assuming it would take at least a similar type of contract as the one the Texans signed Hunter to which included a $36.8M signing bonus spread over 5 years w/ a year 1 cap hit of $20M.

I'm sure we'll have to pay Jones more than what we paid him this year ($15M cap hit), Pierce will likely get at least MPJ money ($18M cap hit in year 1), and Cross will be looking to get paid as well.

Obviously there's ways to create cap space and lower the initial cap hit from a signing, but I don't see us being able to re-sign our own and bring in a top flight DE without making some really tough cuts.

But isn't one form of a bonus or guarantee something that CIG wil have to have in cash to make the payment? Meaning She pays it ahead of time and that amount is spread out of 4-5 years

[ChoppedWood]

Okay, this post isn’t intended to defend Steichen or Ballard or anyone or anything about the organization.

It’s a simple question sparked by the inability of the team to win against Seattle. The Seahawks get the ball with 42 seconds left and 31 seconds later, kick a winning FG.

For most the hundred year history of the league, that would have been inexplicable, considered an epic fail, a two or three time in a season occurrence.

But, has the ground shifted under our feet? Are we living in a new age, crafted by the dynamic kickoff and the league’s incessant drive to extract every last ounce of excitement from the game? How does that combine with the new rules for kicking balls that seem to be driving an explosion of what seems possible on FG attempts?

A few years ago, you would have seen teams blast a kickoff into the end zone. The result, 1st and 10 at the 20. 60 yard field goals were unheard of, anything from 50 out was a prayer. So, you had to move 50 yards in your 40 seconds.

Nowadays, teams are getting starting field position at the 35 or 40. In order to put yourself in position for a 60 plus yard FG, you might have to only move the ball 10 or 15 yards.

In those circumstances, 42 seconds is an eternity.

We saw this play out as early as week 2, when the Giants played Dallas. The Giants take the lead with 19 seconds left, Dallas moves 18 yards and Aubrey kicks a 64 yarder to send it into OT.

I think that it’s changing the way coaches use timeouts at the end of halves. We’ve gone from trying to bleed the clock on D to calling timeouts, trying to conserve every last second. Teams are getting a couple of extra plays, an extra half minute of time to score all because coaches are trying to jockey themselves into a position where they get the ball back with 30 or 40 seconds left.

I think that the result is that the importance of special teams play has just escalated. You need a kick return game that gets you to the 40. You need to stop runners from crossing the 25. You need a kicker who’s money from 60.

I completely agree, the new rules clearly foster the ability to score at the end of games. I can't remember the exact stat, but I heard it earlier this week, something like 73% of the games this year were one score games. Yes, it is all part of the Roger Goodell plan to manufacture more intrigue- I hate the man for living but he is a master marketing machine.

All that said, we lost that game against Seattle because Lou played like a scared little whimp allowing them to just gobble up yards with zero resistance in the most critical point in our season to that point, which is of course why I fucking pray some idiot GM hires him (they won't because they aren't stupid).

[Kray007]

Where do you think the cap space to sign a top DE is going to come from? We currently have $34M in cap space, so will probably need to restructure/cut some guys just to bring back Jones, Pierce, Cross, and anyone else we want to keep.

Spotrac has the number at $52 Million, which is substantially more than Over The Cap’s 34. Part of that is the fact that Spotrac is counting only the top 41 players. Another part is that they peg the cap in 2026 at a higher number. Another curiosity is that, just a day ago, Over The Cap was saying the Colts had $45 Million in cap space. I’m not sure what changed in 24 hours.

My guess is that the number will end up just a bit over $40 Million, and you’re right that we need to carve out a chunk of cap space.

So, how to do it?

Right now, there are four players on the roster…Buckner, Nelson, Pittman, and Taylor…who count a combined $95 Million against the cap. Inking them to new contracts, each with first year cap hits of $12 Million, would free up $47 Million and give you a certain amount of roster certainty.

There are another three players…Zaire Franklin, Grover Stewart, and Kenny Moore….who count $35 Million. Arguably, they are each past their prime, and cutting them would open up another $29 Million. A less harsh option would be to request that they sign new deals for less money.

If Charvarius Ward retires, we get $25 Million in cap relief if we want to take him to arbitration and wrench back the prorated $13 Million of his signing bonus. Personally, I think that that would send a bad message to the locker room, that if you suffer a catastrophic injury, the team will try to extort money from you.

Alternatively, there are a dozen players on the roster who earn a combined $144 Million in salary and bonuses. If you convert that money to bonuses and extend it over the maximum 5 years allowed by the CBA, you can free up well over $100 Million.

[Hoopsdoc]

I'm no Sherck, but I do know enough to be dangerous. I'm assuming it would take at least a similar type of contract as the one the Texans signed Hunter to which included a $36.8M signing bonus spread over 5 years w/ a year 1 cap hit of $20M.

I'm sure we'll have to pay Jones more than what we paid him this year ($15M cap hit), Pierce will likely get at least MPJ money ($18M cap hit in year 1), and Cross will be looking to get paid as well.

Obviously there's ways to create cap space and lower the initial cap hit from a signing, but I don't see us being able to re-sign our own and bring in a top flight DE without making some really tough cuts.

Pierce will get upwards of 20 million per year. If not here, then somewhere else.

Personally, I’d be fine with letting Pittman go and making Pierce our number one receiver.

[Brylok]

Pierce will get upwards of 20 million per year. If not here, then somewhere else.

Personally, I’d be fine with letting Pittman go and making Pierce our number one receiver.

I still think Pierce will leave unless we overpay him. He'd thrive with a team like the Patriots and Drake Maye. Or any contender with a real franchise QB. Other than developing under Reggie Wayne, he's just wasting his time here. Just my opinion.

[YDFL Commish]

We have $$$. Restructure some contracts. Cut some dudes (Zaire) and we're in business. At this point though, it looks like weak FA class.

[Racehorse]

I don't know if there is a way to get a transcript of today's show, but on 1025 The Game, in Nashville, they were discussing which WC team should be the model for the Titans to follow. One said Jax and another said NE. When it was Derrick Mason's turn, he said he would not look to one of them, but to Indianapolis. I guess a former NFL WR turned radio host is clueless, too.
Here is a link to the show. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2665590155
They were talking about it around the 2:30 mark, if my memory is right.

[IndyNorm]

Spotrac has the number at $52 Million, which is substantially more than Over The Cap’s 34. Part of that is the fact that Spotrac is counting only the top 41 players. Another part is that they peg the cap in 2026 at a higher number. Another curiosity is that, just a day ago, Over The Cap was saying the Colts had $45 Million in cap space. I’m not sure what changed in 24 hours.

Interesting. Not sure why Spotrac would only include the top 41, but obviously including the top 51 is going to more accurate with the additional 10 players probably counting ~$10M towards the cap. Also, the total cap liabilities on OTC is $7M more than the top 51, which probably covers things like the rookie pool, etc. Maybe that wasn't being accounted for when you looked earlier on.

My guess is that the number will end up just a bit over $40 Million, and you’re right that we need to carve out a chunk of cap space.

So, how to do it?

Right now, there are four players on the roster…Buckner, Nelson, Pittman, and Taylor…who count a combined $95 Million against the cap. Inking them to new contracts, each with first year cap hits of $12 Million, would free up $47 Million and give you a certain amount of roster certainty.

There are another three players…Zaire Franklin, Grover Stewart, and Kenny Moore….who count $35 Million. Arguably, they are each past their prime, and cutting them would open up another $29 Million. A less harsh option would be to request that they sign new deals for less money.

If Charvarius Ward retires, we get $25 Million in cap relief if we want to take him to arbitration and wrench back the prorated $13 Million of his signing bonus. Personally, I think that that would send a bad message to the locker room, that if you suffer a catastrophic injury, the team will try to extort money from you.

Alternatively, there are a dozen players on the roster who earn a combined $144 Million in salary and bonuses. If you convert that money to bonuses and extend it over the maximum 5 years allowed by the CBA, you can free up well over $100 Million.

Good analysis other than the suggestion to go after the prorated portion of Ward's signing bonus. Although most of the players we would look to extend are 30+, so not sure what the appetite is to extend them. Also, pushing cap hits into the future is something Ballard has avoided doing in the past, so he'll have to step out of his comfort zone there.

[IndyNorm]

I don't know if there is a way to get a transcript of today's show, but on 1025 The Game, in Nashville, they were discussing which WC team should be the model for the Titans to follow. One said Jax and another said NE. When it was Derrick Mason's turn, he said he would not look to one of them, but to Indianapolis. I guess a former NFL WR turned radio host is clueless, too.
Here is a link to the show. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2665590155
They were talking about it around the 2:30 mark, if my memory is right.

Hmm. Considering we've won a whopping 1 playoff game in the past 10 years one would think that he would have found a much more successful franchise to model the Tits after.

[Oldcolt]

I don't know if there is a way to get a transcript of today's show, but on 1025 The Game, in Nashville, they were discussing which WC team should be the model for the Titans to follow. One said Jax and another said NE. When it was Derrick Mason's turn, he said he would not look to one of them, but to Indianapolis. I guess a former NFL WR turned radio host is clueless, too.
Here is a link to the show. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2665590155
They were talking about it around the 2:30 mark, if my memory is right.

Did he explain why he would model it after the Colts? Exactly what would he do that the Colts have done and why, since we are not a playoff team.

[Racehorse]

Did he explain why he would model it after the Colts? Exactly what would he do that the Colts have done and why, since we are not a playoff team.

He did. I do not remember the exact details, but he mentioned the team was mostly home-grown (drafted) talent, with really good talent in a lot of areas (OL, WR, JT, etc) with some of them elite, or almost elite at their position. He said the roster is only missing a solid QB, and when DJ was performing well, we had it, and were a dominating team. I will listen to it again to see if I misrepresented him.

[Racehorse]

Hmm. Considering we've won a whopping 1 playoff game in the past 10 years one would think that he would have found a much more successful franchise to model the Tits after.

Listen to the podcast. It makes more sense that I can explain it. Start at the 2:25 mark.

[Kray007]

Interesting. Not sure why Spotrac would only include the top 41, but obviously including the top 51 is going to more accurate with the additional 10 players probably counting ~$10M towards the cap. Also, the total cap liabilities on OTC is $7M more than the top 51, which probably covers things like the rookie pool, etc. Maybe that wasn't being accounted for when you looked earlier on.



Good analysis other than the suggestion to go after the prorated portion of Ward's signing bonus. Although most of the players we would look to extend are 30+, so not sure what the appetite is to extend them. Also, pushing cap hits into the future is something Ballard has avoided doing in the past, so he'll have to step out of his comfort zone there.

When your boss asks you if you sill have your shimmer, have your Juju, and implies that you’re reaching the end of your tether, you find that your comfort zone is a lot bigger than it used to be.

If you’re just starting out and the future stretches out in front of you, conserving future cap space is a priority. After 9 years, it’s something the next guy has to deal with.

[Oldcolt]

He did. I do not remember the exact details, but he mentioned the team was mostly home-grown (drafted) talent, with really good talent in a lot of areas (OL, WR, JT, etc) with some of them elite, or almost elite at their position. He said the roster is only missing a solid QB, and when DJ was performing well, we had it, and were a dominating team. I will listen to it again to see if I misrepresented him.

In theory I agree. In practice I am not so sure. Are you old enough to remember George Allen and the Redskins? More than one way to skin a cat. We all judge it by the same thing, does it produce wins. Ballards way hasn't been able to seal the deal, yet.

[Racehorse]

In theory I agree. In practice I am not so sure. Are you old enough to remember George Allen and the Redskins? More than one way to skin a cat. We all judge it by the same thing, does it produce wins. Ballards way hasn't been able to seal the deal, yet.

I remember the old Redskins, but did not pay much attention to them at that time. It was always the Cowboys and Steelers in the spotlight then, as it was hard to follow teams outside of what the networks showed every week.

[Brylok]

Evan these Patriots have rebuilt. They've replaced the best NFL head coach of all time. The best NFL QB of all time. Taken years off and are now winning playoff games
I'll always love the Colts. They're my home team, but they're finished. I'll just watch because it's important to have an NFL team here locally. They aren't going to win anything though
And I love pro football. The Colts aren't going to win anything significant again though.

[Brylok]

Evan these Patriots have rebuilt. They've replaced the best NFL head coach of all time. The best NFL QB of all time. Taken years off and are now winning playoff games
I'll always love the Colts. They're my home team, but they're finished. I'll just watch because it's important to have an NFL team here locally. They aren't going to win anything though
And I love pro football. The Colts aren't going to win anything significant again though.

Same with the Pacers. They're never going to win a championship, but it's good that they're still in the city.

[Racehorse]

Same with the Pacers. They're never going to win a championship, but it's good that they're still in the city.

Why do you think the Pacers will never win anything? They took it to 7 games last year.

[Oldcolt]

Brylok, Never is a long time. I agree that we will probably never win anything with this current leadership group and it's depressing as hell. Others on this board disagree so lets hope you and I are full of shit (my wife would back up anyone here who believes that)

[Colts And Orioles]

Brylok, "Never" is a long time.





o


The White Sox went 88 years without winning a World Series ...... and then, they won the World Series.

Never is indeed a very long time.

o

[kitekrazy]

Evan these Patriots have rebuilt. They've replaced the best NFL head coach of all time. The best NFL QB of all time. Taken years off and are now winning playoff games
I'll always love the Colts. They're my home team, but they're finished. I'll just watch because it's important to have an NFL team here locally. They aren't going to win anything though
And I love pro football. The Colts aren't going to win anything significant again though.

That tells you the scouting is still there. That's the real foundation of every franchise.
Just think how bad this franchise could've been if they took Leaf and Williams over Manning and James.
You have to feel for those Cowboy fans who are over 60 when that organization had great scouting and doesn't even come close after the Aikman era.
We are in the dark ages of being a Colts fan. Some of us who followed the team back to the Baltimore days been through that.

There is a "new" owner that doesn't have the experience of hiring and firing yet. Firing is easy, hiring is not.

[ChaosTheory]

Evan these Patriots have rebuilt. They've replaced the best NFL head coach of all time. The best NFL QB of all time. Taken years off and are now winning playoff games
I'll always love the Colts. They're my home team, but they're finished. I'll just watch because it's important to have an NFL team here locally. They aren't going to win anything though
And I love pro football. The Colts aren't going to win anything significant again though.

We're also always comparing them to the field every year. You bring up the Patriots this year. But last year I was reading about how the Vikings were a model franchise we should be emulating. Same with the Commanders.

You're not reading that this year because nobody is writing it. This year it's the Patriots and Bears and Broncos who have the league figured out. We'll see who it is next year.

---

And looking at the field vs your team, you see a SB winner every single year and it's not you. Something about that must make people think there's more than a 3% (1/32) of winning.

Because the Bills never won, the 49ers never won, the Jackson Ravens never won, the Burrow Bengals never won, Campbell Lions never won, LaFluer Packers never won.

It's been pointed out lately that the Colts have won a playoff game more recently than the Steelers. Point being... the Super Bowl is zero-sum. Keep some perspective.

[IndyNorm]

o


The White Sox went 88 years without winning a World Series ...... and then, they won the World Series.

Never is indeed a very long time.

o

Even better the Cubs went 108 years, which I very much enjoy giving Cubs fans shit about by making the statement that if a professional sports team doesn't win a championship in a 100 year span that it should be dissolved :D.

[Oldcolt]

We're also always comparing them to the field every year. You bring up the Patriots this year. But last year I was reading about how the Vikings were a model franchise we should be emulating. Same with the Commanders.

You're not reading that this year because nobody is writing it. This year it's the Patriots and Bears and Broncos who have the league figured out. We'll see who it is next year.

---

And looking at the field vs your team, you see a SB winner every single year and it's not you. Something about that must make people think there's more than a 3% (1/32) of winning.

Because the Bills never won, the 49ers never won, the Jackson Ravens never won, the Burrow Bengals never won, Campbell Lions never won, LaFluer Packers never won.

It's been pointed out lately that the Colts have won a playoff game more recently than the Steelers. Point being... the Super Bowl is zero-sum. Keep some perspective.

To me it isn't about winning the Super Bowl once or even multiple times like Jim always wanted. I don't need a dynasty to be satisfied (would be nice though). Having a realistic chance to not just make the playoffs but, if you get hot, to make a run gives me personally something to be invested in. You take the chance and most of the time you lose. It's a bummer but fun anyway because it's just a game and there is always next year. I have not felt this way about our team since Luck was here. It is to damn long.

[Colts And Orioles]

o


The White Sox went 88 years without winning a World Series ...... and then, they won the World Series.

Never is indeed a very long time.

o







Even better is the fact that the Cubs went 108 years without winning a World Series, which I very much enjoy giving Cubs fans shit about by making the statement that if a professional sports team doesn't win a championship in a 100-year span that it should be dissolved ) :D.





o


I always use the White Sox as an example because of the fact that Cubs fans and Red Sox fans are a bunch of whiny, narcissistic, self-pitying crybabies.

The White Sox actually went longer without winning it all (88 years) than the Red Sox did (86 years), but all you ever heard about was the droughts of the Red Sox and the Cubs because of their constant, narcissistic whining ...... White Sox fans, in my rat's ass of an opinion, were not nearly as nauseating in dealing with their 88-year drought as were Red Sox fans and Cubs fans.

o

[Puck]

That tells you the scouting is still there. That's the real foundation of every franchise.
Just think how bad this franchise could've been if they took Leaf and Williams over Manning and James.
You have to feel for those Cowboy fans who are over 60 when that organization had great scouting and doesn't even come close after the Aikman era.
We are in the dark ages of being a Colts fan. Some of us who followed the team back to the Baltimore days been through that.

There is a "new" owner that doesn't have the experience of hiring and firing yet. Firing is easy, hiring is not.

Well said

[Oldcolt]

Puck, you have convinced me that this a probable scenerio and I am comfortable with it. I still have a couple of reservations about it however. First most new owners have no football or very little football experience yet manage to usually fire both the GM and the coach and start new. Secondly these women were not blindsided by this. They had years many where they were specifically groomed to take over from their father. Making these kind of decisions should have been near the top of their teaching. Then there is the fact that Jim's death wasn't something out of the blue. It doesn't make the emotional difficulty any easier but should have made the transition in running the club easier. Finally I am concerned that Carlie is so involved with the club on a day to day basis that she isn't seeing the whole picture clearly (Ballard may be a very close friend for instance, making objectivity difficult). Now I am not saying any of this is true (either scenario) only that both are possible. It will become clear as time passes which is true.

[Puck]

Puck, you have convinced me that this a probable scenerio and I am comfortable with it. I still have a couple of reservations about it however. First most new owners have no football or very little football experience yet manage to usually fire both the GM and the coach and start new. Secondly these women were not blindsided by this. They had years many where they were specifically groomed to take over from their father. Making these kind of decisions should have been near the top of their teaching. Then there is the fact that Jim's death wasn't something out of the blue. It doesn't make the emotional difficulty any easier but should have made the transition in running the club easier. Finally I am concerned that Carlie is so involved with the club on a day to day basis that she isn't seeing the whole picture clearly (Ballard may be a very close friend for instance, making objectivity difficult). Now I am not saying any of this is true (either scenario) only that both are possible. It will become clear as time passes which is true.

Can't argue with any of that. I think maybe she saw the beginning of the season and thought if I don't give this one more chance I could be making a huge mistake.

Ballard's contract expires after 2026 correct? Not sure when SS does. For the record I am indifferent on Ballard. I think he has made some very good draft picks. And he has also missed some. As all GM's do. (most recently seeing that he took Evan Hull one spot before the Rams took Puka OUCH).

I am a Shane fan though. I think he has proven that with a competent QB he can win.

You are right She was groomed. And maybe I didn't put enough credence into that. But maybe she really thinks they are close when healthy.

As far as her being so involved in the club, that is an interesting take. She sees everything like CB and SS as well as the coaches do And everything looks great on paper from that view. But taking a step back like us as fans see things differently. One thing though is that you don't see the outside NFL community outside of the local media, thinking either is on the hot seat.

I wonder if she needs a President of FB ops? Like Matt Ryan signed for the Falcons

Who knows. Good points. We shall see

[IndyNorm]

o


I always use the White Sox as an example because of the fact that Cubs fans and Red Sox fans are a bunch of whiny, narcissistic, self-pitying crybabies.

The White Sox actually went longer without winning it all (88 years) than the Red Sox did (86 years), but all you ever heard about was the droughts of the Red Sox and the Cubs because of their constant, narcissistic whining ...... White Sox fans, in my rat's ass of an opinion, were not nearly as nauseating in dealing with their 88-year drought as were Red Sox fans and Cubs fans.

o

No argument from me about Cubs or Sawx fans. Especially Cubs fans since I run into way more of them living in the Midwest, hence the joke I always make about teams should be dissolved if they can't win a championship within a 100 year span :D.

Although I would be remiss if I didn't bring up that the White Sox would likely have not had a larger gap than the Red Sox if they hadn't thrown the 1919 World Series.

[Colts And Orioles]

No argument from me about Cubs or Sawx fans ...... especially Cubs fans, since I run into way more of them living in the Midwest, hence the joke that I always make about teams should be dissolved if they can't win a championship within a 100-year span ) :D.

Although I would be remiss if I didn't bring up that the White Sox would likely have not had a larger gap than the Red Sox if they hadn't thrown the 1919 World Series.





o


As a Black Sox expert, the first thing that needs to be said about that entire situation is that there are many things about the entire affair that nobody will ever know for sure (including myself.)

That said, both Shoeless Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver very likely played to win. In fact, Jackson set what was then a World Series record with 12 hits, batted .375 for the series, hit the only home run of the series for either team, and did not make an error on defense. Similarly, Weaver batted .324, did not make an error on defense, and by all accounts played his best to win (not easy to do, knowing that 6 of your teammates are intentionally throwing games.)

Weaver never took a dime, repeatedly asked for a separate trial from his teammates to prove his innocence (of which he was denied), and appealed to the MLB commissioners (Kenesaw Landis, Happy Chandler, and Ford Frick) every year until his death in 1956 to have himself reinstated (all of his appeal were denied.)

Jackson was given $5,000 in an envelope by his best friend and teammate (Lefty Williams) ........ money that he never asked for, and that he did not want. In fact, he even tried to give the money to the team owner (Charlie Comiskey) and report the entire scandal to him but he was intercepted by Harry Grabiner (Comiskey's secretary), who told Jackson that Comiskey had nothing to say to him (even though he had offered a $10,000 reward for anyone giving him any information on the fix.) At that point, Jackson decided that he simply wasn't going to play in the series because of the fix that he knew that his teammates were complicit in. His manager (Kid Gleason) screamed at Jackson that he would play ....... Gleason's statement was not a prediction or a request, it was a threat. The uneducated, illiterate Jackson buckled under the pressure of his manager and owner, and played all 8 games of the series to the best of his ability, but (like teammate Buck Weaver) was not comfortable in doing so.

As stated before, there are still many aspects of the entire affair that people do not know, and will never find out. However, based on the numerous books, articles, and films that I have read and seen, and the people that I have spoken with (I actually called a man named Gardner Stern on the telephone just before he died in 1996 who lived in Chicago his entire life, and who was 16 years-old at the time of the fix, and I spoke extensively with him about it), Jackson and Weaver both played to win, in spite of the pressure of the situation that was on them.



************************************


Me and Gardner Stern


In regard to Gardner Stern, this man ......


A. ) Saw the first game ever at THE ORIGINAL Comiskey Park in April of 1910, when he was 6 and-a-half years old.

B. ) Had his heart broken when it was found out that his beloved White Sox had thrown the 1919 World Series (he in fact went to one of those World Series games against the Reds.)



As I said earlier, his name was Gardner Stern. He was born in 1904, was a life-long White Sox fan, and was a guest in Ken Burns' baseball documentary.

I simply called information for Chicago, Illinois (in 1996), asked for his phone number, and he was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about the entire Black Sox scandal, plus his lifelong fandom of the White Sox ...... he died just a few months after our conversation.

o

[Oldcolt]

C&O That is amazing and very cool. What made you call the man? Do you do this for a living or is it a hobby of yours? Ive always found the scandal to be infuriating. One more example of the rich and powerful screwing over the players. We did get Landis who cleaned up baseball but seemed like a total ass.

[Colts And Orioles]

C&O, that is amazing, and very cool. What made you call the man ??? Do you do this for a living, or is it a hobby of yours ??? I've always found the scandal to be infuriating, as it is one more example of the rich and powerful screwing over the players. We did get Landis, who cleaned up baseball, but seemed like a total ass.





o


It's a hobby.


Regarding Landis "cleaning up baseball", that is a fallacy that is greatly exaggerated, and I'll explain why ......

Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were permitted by Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis to resign from their player-manager posts near the end of the 1926 season after former pitcher Dutch Leonard charged that Cobb, Speaker, and Smoky Joe Wood had joined him just before the 1919 World Series in betting on a game they all knew was fixed. Leonard presented letters and other documents to Commissioner Landis and AL President Ban Johnson, and Johnson thought that they would be so potentially damaging to baseball in the wake of the Black Sox scandal that he paid Leonard $20,000 to have them suppressed. Landis, who proposed to have a "zero tolerance policy" when he was hired as the Commissioner of MLB in direct response to the Black Sox scandal, did everything that he could to cover up and gloss over the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker/Smoky Joe Wood incident for fear that the American public would be completely disillusioned about the authenticity of the game, because it would have been the second major game-fixing scandal in the same time period of time.

So while Landis is in Baseball Hall-of-Fame for allegedly cleaning up baseball, the fact of the matter was that was a racist, bigoted grandstander who gets far more credit than he actually deserves in regard to his overall legacy in the history of professional baseball.

o

[Oldcolt]

I agree with you on the reality of Landis. Baseball was chock full of racist bigots back in the early 20th century (as was the whole damn country). He changed the public perception of baseball which was worth something. Cool hobby by the way.

[IndyNorm]

o


As a Black Sox expert, the first thing that needs to be said about that entire situation is that there are many things about the entire affair that nobody will ever know for sure (including myself.)

That said, both Shoeless Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver very likely played to win. In fact, Jackson set what was then a World Series record with 12 hits, batted .375 for the series, hit the only home run of the series for either team, and did not make an error on defense. Similarly, Weaver batted .324, did not make an error on defense, and by all accounts played his best to win (not easy to do, knowing that 6 of your teammates are intentionally throwing games.)

Weaver never took a dime, repeatedly asked for a separate trial from his teammates to prove his innocence (of which he was denied), and appealed to the MLB commissioners (Kenesaw Landis, Happy Chandler, and Ford Frick) every year until his death in 1956 to have himself reinstated (all of his appeal were denied.)

Jackson was given $5,000 in an envelope by his best friend and teammate (Lefty Williams) ........ money that he never asked for, and that he did not want. In fact, he even tried to give the money to the team owner (Charlie Comiskey) and report the entire scandal to him but he was intercepted by Harry Grabiner (Comiskey's secretary), who told Jackson that Comiskey had nothing to say to him (even though he had offered a $10,000 reward for anyone giving him any information on the fix.) At that point, Jackson decided that he simply wasn't going to play in the series because of the fix that he knew that his teammates were complicit in. His manager (Kid Gleason) screamed at Jackson that he would play ....... Gleason's statement was not a prediction or a request, it was a threat. The uneducated, illiterate Jackson buckled under the pressure of his manager and owner, and played all 8 games of the series to the best of his ability, but (like teammate Buck Weaver) was not comfortable in doing so.

As stated before, there are still many aspects of the entire affair that people do not know, and will never find out. However, based on the numerous books, articles, and films that I have read and seen, and the people that I have spoken with (I actually called a man named Gardner Stern on the telephone just before he died in 1996 who lived in Chicago his entire life, and who was 16 years-old at the time of the fix, and I spoke extensively with him about it), Jackson and Weaver both played to win, in spite of the pressure of the situation that was on them.



************************************


Me and Gardner Stern


In regard to Gardner Stern, this man ......


A. ) Saw the first game ever at THE ORIGINAL Comiskey Park in April of 1910, when he was 6 and-a-half years old.

B. ) Had his heart broken when it was found out that his beloved White Sox had thrown the 1919 World Series (he in fact went to one of those World Series games against the Reds.)



As I said earlier, his name was Gardner Stern. He was born in 1904, was a life-long White Sox fan, and was a guest in Ken Burns' baseball documentary.

I simply called information for Chicago, Illinois (in 1996), asked for his phone number, and he was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about the entire Black Sox scandal, plus his lifelong fandom of the White Sox ...... he died just a few months after our conversation.

o

Interesting info C&O and really cool story about your conversation w/ Gardner Stern. Definitely really nice of him to share his story w/ you. Unfortunately that probably wouldn't happen today due to all of the scam and spam calls everyone gets.

I knew that Buck Weaver didn't take the bribe and played to win, but that he was banned w/ his teammates under the pretense that he knew about the fix and didn't turn them in. Also, I knew that there's a lot of controversy on whether Sholess Joe threw games or not and that he overall played well, but I didn't know he played that well.


Regarding Landis "cleaning up baseball", that is a fallacy that is greatly exaggerated, and I'll explain why ......

Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were permitted by Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis to resign from their player-manager posts near the end of the 1926 season after former pitcher Dutch Leonard charged that Cobb, Speaker, and Smoky Joe Wood had joined him just before the 1919 World Series in betting on a game they all knew was fixed. Leonard presented letters and other documents to Commissioner Landis and AL President Ban Johnson, and Johnson thought that they would be so potentially damaging to baseball in the wake of the Black Sox scandal that he paid Leonard $20,000 to have them suppressed. Landis, who proposed to have a "zero tolerance policy" when he was hired as the Commissioner of MLB in direct response to the Black Sox scandal, did everything that he could to cover up and gloss over the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker/Smoky Joe Wood incident for fear that the American public would be completely disillusioned about the authenticity of the game, because it would have been the second major game-fixing scandal in the same time period of time.

So while Landis is in Baseball Hall-of-Fame for allegedly cleaning up baseball, the fact of the matter was that was a racist, bigoted grandstander who gets far more credit than he actually deserves in regard to his overall legacy in the history of professional baseball.

Interesting. I'll have to read up on the Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker incident.

And Landis may have been a total asshole and gets too much credit, but I think he definitely deserves at least some credit for saving baseball. At least from my understanding the Black Sox had gotten away w/ the whole thing scott free until Landis stepped in and laid down the hammer. If he (or perhaps someone else) had not done this then the flood gates would have been wide open for fixing games, which IMO would have ended baseball.

Anyway, interesting stuff. I'll definitely do some more reading on this as it's piqued my interest. Also, there's a historical walking tour in downtown Cincy on the 1919 World Series I had forgotten about until our conversation here. I'll have to plan on going on it here in the spring or summer.

[Colts And Orioles]

Interesting ...... I'll have to read up on the Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker incident.

And Landis may have been a total asshole and gets too much credit, but I think that he definitely deserves at least some credit for saving baseball. At least from my understanding, the Black Sox had gotten away with the whole thing scott-free until Landis stepped in and laid down the hammer. If he (or perhaps someone else) had not done this, then the flood-gates would have been wide open for fixing games, which IMO would have ended baseball.





o


Landis was not the reason why the Black Sox avoided getting away with the fix. The story went viral/nationwide in late September of 1920. With only 3 games left to be played in the regular season, Charlie Comiskey suspended all 8 players, pending further investigation. Landis was not in the picture at all until well after that ...... in other words, the genie was already out of the bottle, action had already been taken against the 8 accused players, and Landis had nothing to do with it.

The MLB owners, fearing an extremely damaging blow to baseball because of the fix, hired Landis after the fact (after the fix had been exposed, and action had been taken against the 8 accused players) in order to try to give some credibility to the game. After the 8 accused players were exonerated in a court of law in 1921, Landis banned them all from MLB for life.

Landis' inaction and willful ignorance of the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker fixing incident completely belies the notion that he banned the 8 Black Sox players to preserve the moral integrity of the game ...... it was nothing more than Landis grandstanding after the fact, and he cared not about the integrity of the game, but rather was doing what was expedient at the time.




****************************



In regard to the possibility of baseball not surviving had the 8 accused White Sox players not been banned, it is highly unlikely that baseball would have met its end had they not been banned ...... basketball survived the Tim Donaghy scandal (a referee who was actively fixing games with his officiating because he bet on them) without blinking. Since then, numerous basketball players and coaches have all been indicted for gambling on games that they were playing in and coaching in as well (Terry Rozier, Chauncey Billups, and Damon Jones, etc), and the game is still going strong, and attendance and TV ratings haven't missed a beat ...... Americans love their sports, and gambling, fixing games, and/or other ridiculousness such as the NFL rule changes neutering defenses and vaulting quarterbacks into putting up statistics that resemble a pinball game gone wild won't stop them from coming through the gates by the thousands, and tuning in on their TV sets by the millions.

o

[Oldcolt]

C&O You obviously know so much more about this than I do. Ive read a couple of books about the era. Two questions for you. I agree he did very little but how important was the public perception that he totally cleaned up baseball (at least the vast general public). Second question is what you think of Honus Wagner? I understand this is a Colt board but you are the first person Ive come across that seems interested in prewar sports. Apologize for this to you Freaks

[Kray007]

o


It's a hobby.


Regarding Landis "cleaning up baseball", that is a fallacy that is greatly exaggerated, and I'll explain why ......

Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were permitted by Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis to resign from their player-manager posts near the end of the 1926 season after former pitcher Dutch Leonard charged that Cobb, Speaker, and Smoky Joe Wood had joined him just before the 1919 World Series in betting on a game they all knew was fixed. Leonard presented letters and other documents to Commissioner Landis and AL President Ban Johnson, and Johnson thought that they would be so potentially damaging to baseball in the wake of the Black Sox scandal that he paid Leonard $20,000 to have them suppressed. Landis, who proposed to have a "zero tolerance policy" when he was hired as the Commissioner of MLB in direct response to the Black Sox scandal, did everything that he could to cover up and gloss over the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker/Smoky Joe Wood incident for fear that the American public would be completely disillusioned about the authenticity of the game, because it would have been the second major game-fixing scandal in the same time period of time.

So while Landis is in Baseball Hall-of-Fame for allegedly cleaning up baseball, the fact of the matter was that was a racist, bigoted grandstander who gets far more credit than he actually deserves in regard to his overall legacy in the history of professional baseball.

o

You can clean up the game without doing it on the front page of the New York Herald Tribune or the Baltimore Sun. Both Cobb and Speaker were successful managers who, in the prime of their careers, were forced out, never to return to the game.

As far as making the Hall because of his reputation for cleaning up the game, it’s more likely he made it because he was the commish. Four of the first 5 commissioners made it.

[Kray007]

o


Landis was not the reason why the Black Sox avoided getting away with the fix. The story went viral/nationwide in late September of 1920. With only 3 games left to be played in the regular season, Charlie Comiskey suspended all 8 players, pending further investigation. Landis was not in the picture at all until well after that ...... in other words, the genie was already out of the bottle, action had already been taken against the 8 accused players, and Landis had nothing to do with it.

The MLB owners, fearing an extremely damaging blow to baseball because of the fix, hired Landis after the fact (after the fix had been exposed, and action had been taken against the 8 accused players) in order to try to give some credibility to the game. After the 8 accused players were exonerated in a court of law in 1921, Landis banned them all from MLB for life.

Landis' inaction and willful ignorance of the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker fixing incident completely belies the notion that he banned the 8 Black Sox players to preserve the moral integrity of the game ...... it was nothing more than Landis grandstanding after the fact, and he cared not about the integrity of the game, but rather was doing what was expedient at the time.




****************************



In regard to the possibility of baseball not surviving had the 8 accused White Sox players not been banned, it is highly unlikely that baseball would have met its end had they not been banned ...... basketball survived the Tim Donaghy scandal (a referee who was actively fixing games with his officiating because he bet on them) without blinking. Since then, numerous basketball players and coaches have all been indicted for gambling on games that they were playing in and coaching in as well (Terry Rozier, Chauncey Billups, and Damon Jones, etc), and the game is still going strong, and attendance and TV ratings haven't missed a beat ...... Americans love their sports, and gambling, fixing games, and/or other ridiculousness such as the NFL rule changes neutering defenses and vaulting quarterbacks into putting up statistics that resemble a pinball game gone wild won't stop them from coming through the gates by the thousands, and tuning in on their TV sets by the millions.

o

Expecting Landis to take action before the trial was unreasonable. He was a Federal judge and would have been hesitant to make any move that might taint a trial.

Within hours of the verdict, he announced the ban.

[Colts And Orioles]

Expecting Landis to take action before the trial was unreasonable. He was a Federal judge and would have been hesitant to make any move that might taint a trial.

Within hours of the verdict, he announced the ban.





o


I never said or insinuated that Landis should have taken action before he was called in by the owners. I said that he was called in AFTER action had already been taken (Comiskey banned the 8 players in September of 1920, which was long before Landis was called in.) Landis was called in strictly for cosmetic purposes, to give the illusion that he was cleaning up baseball. And if you read my previous posts, you would see that there was irrefutable proof that he intentionally ignored the Ty Cobb-Tris Speaker game-fixing incident, an incident that literally had written proof of the fix. Kennesaw Landis was as phony and as disingenuous as any person associated with the crookedness of baseball at that time.

Also, if you know anything about Landis as a Federal Judge, you would know that he was known for grandstanding with ridiculous verdicts that he knew would be overturned (such as the 1907 Standard Oil case, which was overturned in 1908.) The man was as phony, transparent, and as bigoted as they come.

o

[Oldcolt]

C&O Man life just isn't fair in the least. While alive anyway. I think folks like you are at least changing the narrative on these people now. What you have said jibes and clarifies what I have read. To bad you don't live in Arizona.

[IndyNorm]

Landis was not the reason why the Black Sox avoided getting away with the fix. The story went viral/nationwide in late September of 1920. With only 3 games left to be played in the regular season, Charlie Comiskey suspended all 8 players, pending further investigation. Landis was not in the picture at all until well after that ...... in other words, the genie was already out of the bottle, action had already been taken against the 8 accused players, and Landis had nothing to do with it.

The MLB owners, fearing an extremely damaging blow to baseball because of the fix, hired Landis after the fact (after the fix had been exposed, and action had been taken against the 8 accused players) in order to try to give some credibility to the game. After the 8 accused players were exonerated in a court of law in 1921, Landis banned them all from MLB for life.

This is what I was getting at. You obviously are much more knowledgeable on the subject than I am so please correct me if I'm wrong, but since the courts found them not guilty wouldn't the Black Sox players have been allowed to continue playing if Landis had not have banned them? Obviously allowing them back on the field would have been extremely detrimental to the game.

Landis' inaction and willful ignorance of the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker fixing incident completely belies the notion that he banned the 8 Black Sox players to preserve the moral integrity of the game ...... it was nothing more than Landis grandstanding after the fact, and he cared not about the integrity of the game, but rather was doing what was expedient at the time.


Like Kray I think you're missing some nuance here. Here's a summary I found in this ESPN article: https://www.espn.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1233060.html

1926 - Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were permitted by Ban Johnson to resign from baseball near the end of the 1926 season after former pitcher Dutch Leonard charged that Cobb, Speaker and Smoky Joe Wood had joined him just before the 1919 World Series in betting on a game they all knew was fixed. Leonard presented letters and other documents to Johnson, and Johnson thought they would be so potentially damaging to baseball in the wake of the Black Sox scandal that he paid Leonard $20,000 to have them suppressed. Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis exposed the cover-up and the eventual fallout forced Johnson out his job as president of the league he had created. Cobb and Speaker vehemently denied any wrongdoing, Cobb saying that "There has never been a baseball game in my life that I played in that I knew was fixed,? and that the only games he ever bet on were two series games in 1919, when he lost $150 on games thrown by the Sox. He claimed his letters to Leonard had been misunderstood, that he was merely speaking of business investments. Landis took the case under advisement and eventually let both players remain in baseball because they had not been found guilty of fixing any game themselves. It was after this case, though, that Landis instituted the rule mandating that any player found guilty of betting on baseball would be suspended for a year and that any player found to have bet on his own team would be barred for life. Cobb later claimed that the attorneys representing him and Speaker had brokered their reinstatement by threatening to expose further scandal in baseball if the two were not cleared.

****************************



In regard to the possibility of baseball not surviving had the 8 accused White Sox players not been banned, it is highly unlikely that baseball would have met its end had they not been banned ...... basketball survived the Tim Donaghy scandal (a referee who was actively fixing games with his officiating because he bet on them) without blinking. Since then, numerous basketball players and coaches have all been indicted for gambling on games that they were playing in and coaching in as well (Terry Rozier, Chauncey Billups, and Damon Jones, etc), and the game is still going strong, and attendance and TV ratings haven't missed a beat ...... Americans love their sports, and gambling, fixing games, and/or other ridiculousness such as the NFL rule changes neutering defenses and vaulting quarterbacks into putting up statistics that resemble a pinball game gone wild won't stop them from coming through the gates by the thousands, and tuning in on their TV sets by the millions.

Tim Donaghy is banned for life from the NBA, and Rozier, Billups, and Jones are all suspended indefinitely and will likely be banned as well if found guilty. Pretty sure the NBA would take a HUGE hit if they were all allowed back into the league right now.

The point I was making is that if the Black Sox players would have been allowed to remain playing with only a minor tap on the wrist then there would have been nothing to prevent Arnold Rothstein or someone like him from fixing 1921 World Series, or the '22 Series, and on and on and on. Maybe someone else would have banned the players as well or the players would have been black listed, but since Landis is the one who banned them IMO you have to give him credit for it.

[Colts And Orioles]

This is what I was getting at. You obviously are much more knowledgeable on the subject than I am so please correct me if I'm wrong, but since the courts found them not guilty wouldn't the Black Sox players have been allowed to continue playing if Landis had not have banned them ??? Obviously allowing them back on the field would have been extremely detrimental to the game.





o


Yes, they would have been allowed to continue to play ....... and the game would have survived and even thrived, with or without them.

If you ever saw the movie "Quiz Show" (or read books on the subject) one poignant point of the movie is when Martin Scorsese's character (Martin Rittenhome, top executive of the Geritol company) tells a disillusioned Richard Goodwin that the public has a short memory, but the networks never forget. While Goodwin was trying to assert that the television careers of Dan Enright, Martin Freedman, and Jack Barry were over due to their involvement in the fixing of game shows, Scorsese/Rittenhome was predicting that they would all be back ....... and they were ...... in fact, both Jack Barry and Dan Enright later became multimillionaires in the early 1970's with a game show called Joker's Wild ...... not only were they back in television, but they were specifically back with (of all things) another game show.

The same is true of baseball, basketball, boxing, or any other major sport regarding scandals ...... if any of those players and/or coaches who are currently accused of wrongdoing/gambling on games ever came back to the NBA based on even the slightest presumption of innocence, the NBA would not cease to exist, or even be huirt at the box office ....... as I said before, the American public loves their sports, and no amount of scandal ...... not even a continuous, ongoing scandal, like what is happening in basketball ...... is going to drive them away.

Pete Rose admitted to betting on Reds games WHILE he was still playing for and managing the Reds, and there were still millions of fans who were clamoring for him to be inducted into the Hall-of-Fame, right up until the day that he died.

o





Like Kray I think you're missing some nuance here. Here's a summary I found in this ESPN article:

https://www.espn.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1233060.html


1926 - Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were permitted by Ban Johnson to resign from baseball near the end of the 1926 season after former pitcher Dutch Leonard charged that Cobb, Speaker and Smoky Joe Wood had joined him just before the 1919 World Series in betting on a game they all knew was fixed. Leonard presented letters and other documents to Johnson, and Johnson thought they would be so potentially damaging to baseball in the wake of the Black Sox scandal that he paid Leonard $20,000 to have them suppressed. Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis exposed the cover-up and the eventual fallout forced Johnson out his job as president of the league he had created. Cobb and Speaker vehemently denied any wrongdoing, Cobb saying that "There has never been a baseball game in my life that I played in that I knew was fixed,? and that the only games he ever bet on were two series games in 1919, when he lost $150 on games thrown by the Sox. He claimed his letters to Leonard had been misunderstood, that he was merely speaking of business investments. Landis took the case under advisement and eventually let both players remain in baseball because they had not been found guilty of fixing any game themselves. It was after this case, though, that Landis instituted the rule mandating that any player found guilty of betting on baseball would be suspended for a year and that any player found to have bet on his own team would be barred for life. Cobb later claimed that the attorneys representing him and Speaker had brokered their reinstatement by threatening to expose further scandal in baseball if the two were not cleared.




o


That article is not representing what actually happened.

Of course Cobb would say that he was misunderstood. Pete Rose also denied any wrong-doing along with almost every person that has ever gone to jail.

More significantly, Landis' behavior in regard to his exoneration of/ignoring the Cobb and Speaker game-fixing was completely hypocritical in regard to his treatment of the Black Sox. Landis banned the 8 White Sox players, in spite of them being found not guilty in a court of law ....... essentially saying that the Buck stops here, and nobody, not even a court of law, will transcend what I view to be justice and fairness ...... allowing Cobb and Speaker to remain in the game because they had not been found guilty without he himself (Landis) digging deeper into the case was passing the buck, and copping out. Furthermore, when he was later confronted about his inaction in regard to the Cobb/Speaker incident, he said that that incident occurred before was the commissioner (the Cobb-Speaker fixed games occurred in September of 1919), and so he felt that it was not his territory to act in a judgmental manner ...... which completely belies not only his attitude about the swift and permanent action that he took against the Black Sox (which also occurred before he was the commissioner), but also his entire career as a Federal Judge when he would hand ridiculous down fines and judgements that he knew would be overturned.

If you want to believe that Kenesaw Landis was at all credible in regard to either his career as a Federal Judge or as the Commissioner of MLB, you can ...... I happen to know, through extensive research, that nothing could be further from the truth.

As Benjamin Disraeli once said, "Innocence is precious, but truth is better." ...... I choose to take solace in the latter.

o

[Kray007]

o


I never said or insinuated that Landis should have taken action before he was called in by the owners. I said that he was called in AFTER action had already been taken (Comiskey banned the 8 players in September of 1920, which was long before Landis was called in.) Landis was called in strictly for cosmetic purposes, to give the illusion that he was cleaning up baseball. And if you read my previous posts, you would see that there was irrefutable proof that he intentionally ignored the Ty Cobb-Tris Speaker game-fixing incident, an incident that literally had written proof of the fix. Kennesaw Landis was as phony and as disingenuous as any person associated with the crookedness of baseball at that time.

Also, if you know anything about Landis as a Federal Judge, you would know that he was known for grandstanding with ridiculous verdicts that he knew would be overturned (such as the 1907 Standard Oil case, which was overturned in 1908.) The man was as phony, transparent, and as bigoted as they come.

o
My understanding is that Cobb and Speaker didn’t ever throw a game, they just bet on one they believed was fixed.

As far as ignoring it, the fact is that after the scandal came to Landis’s attention, neither man ever managed another game.

And, I’m just curious; what could Landis have done differently in the Black Sox scandal?

[Colts And Orioles]

My understanding is that Cobb and Speaker didn’t ever throw a game, they just bet on one they believed was fixed.

As far as ignoring it, the fact is that after the scandal came to Landis’s attention, neither man ever managed another game.

And, I’m just curious ...... what could Landis have done differently in the Black Sox scandal ???





o


Cobb and Speaker threw a game, they did not just bet on them.

Regarding the Black Sox, Landis should not have banned Buck Weaver, as Weaver specifically asked for a separate trial from his teammates, and was denied. Weaver appealed his banning every year until the day that he died in 1956, and Landis refused to accept the fact that Weaver played to the best of his abilities and never took a dime in regard to the fix ...... the notion that Weaver necessarily should have "promptly told his ball club about it" completely belies and is in direct contradiction to his extremely lax, dismissing of the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker game-fixing incident, an incident of which there was documentation that they both threw a game and bet on games ...... with the Black Sox, Landis' blanket/extreme decision to ban each and every one of them, regardless of the fact that they were all exonerated in a court of law, and regardless of the fact that 2 of the players played to the best of their abilities (Weaver and Jackson), set the precedent that he was to be a "No nonsense/no tolerance" commissioner, and that he would deal with any and all accusations of fixing and betting on games harshly and firmly, with no wiggle room for any kind of nuance.


Landis' milquetoast, nonchalant handling of the Cobb/Speaker incident, particularly his statement that he was dropping the case "because it happened before he was commissioner," completely belies his handling of the Black Sox situation (particularly in the case of Buck Weaver), which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that his interest first and foremost was grandstanding and expedience, not to rid the game of corruption.

o

[IndyNorm]

Back to our Landis/Cobb/Speaker/Black Sox Debate. I found this article today that I thought was a good read on the Cobb/Speaker controversy:

https://www.vintagedetroit.com/gambling-scandal-nearly-scarred-the-accomplishments-of-ty-cobb-and-tris-speaker/?srsltid=AfmBOooSHpJCwz7622UUtoxgsSt3XbE7j2h-AoyEYhoybpgbA-jQo9sK

Per this article Cobb and Speaker along w/ Leonard and Wood did indeed fix the game in question; however, the author does state that late season fixes after the pennant was decided were pretty common back then, Especially on the final day of the season:

But in addition to the game fixing and schemes that hovered like storm clouds over the World Series in the deadball era, every season there were opportunities for a clever player to make extra money by “laying down.” The circumstances of these fixed games often involved teams hopelessly out of the pennant race, late in the schedule when players were weary from a long season and hoped to make a few hundred bucks before heading home for the winter.

At least two dozen incidents are known where players from opposing teams went in cahoots to throw a game on the final day of the season. The players would pool their money and bet on the team that would “win” the fixed contest. In 1919, when the Cleveland Indians were in Detroit to face the Cobb’s Tigers, such an arrangement was concocted. Neither the Indians nor the Tigers were going to win the pennant that season, but the Tigers were in a tight scrum with the Yankees for third place. At that time, a third place finish would mean a small share of the post-season money for every member of the Tigers. The Indians had second place locked up. Veterans Cobb and Tris Speaker of Cleveland huddled prior to the game of September 25th and ironed out the details.


I could definitely see this playing out where Landis saw the Cobb/Speaker game as the tip of the iceberg, so decided it best to keep the punishment in house (Cobb and Speaker were both let go from their respective teams in 1926 and never rehired as managers) and then write into the MLB bylaws the penatlies for gambling on the game. Pure speculation on my part, but IMO not unreasonable at all. And it aligns w/ the final tidbit from the article I posted yesterday as from what I know about Cobb he would definitely be the type that if he's going down he's taking the ship with him:

Cobb later claimed that the attorneys representing him and Speaker had brokered their reinstatement by threatening to expose further scandal in baseball if the two were not cleared.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXX

Regarding the Black Sox, Landis should not have banned Buck Weaver, as Weaver specifically asked for a separate trial from his teammates, and was denied. Weaver appealed his banning every year until the day that he died in 1956, and Landis refused to accept the fact that Weaver played to the best of his abilities and never took a dime in regard to the fix ...... the notion that Weaver necessarily should have "promptly told his ball club about it" completely belies and is in direct contradiction to his extremely lax, dismissing of the Ty Cobb/Tris Speaker game-fixing incident, an incident of which there was documentation that they both threw a game and bet on games ...... with the Black Sox, Landis' blanket/extreme decision to ban each and every one of them, regardless of the fact that they were all exonerated in a court of law, and regardless of the fact that 2 of the players played to the best of their abilities (Weaver and Jackson), set the precedent that he was to be a "No nonsense/no tolerance" commissioner, and that he would deal with any and all accusations of fixing and betting on games harshly and firmly, with no wiggle room for any kind of nuance.


I fully agree that Buck Weaver got the shaft in the deal. IMO he should have been suspended, possibly up to a year, but a lifetime ban was way overkill for him since he did not take the bribe or throw games. Jackson is more of a gray area, but since he accepted the bribe (which he admitted to doing) I don't think his ban was necessarily unfair.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the trial a complete sham? To my knowledge the evidence was pretty overwhelming that the players on trial had accepted bribes and fixed the Series, which included multiple players confessing to it during their grand jury trial. Hell Eddie Cicotte admitted to hitting the Reds lead off batter in game 1 to signal that the fix was on.

Yes, they would have been allowed to continue to play ....... and the game would have survived and even thrived, with or without them.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here. I don't think there's any question the game would have lost a lot of credibility and fans if the Black Sox players would have been allowed back on the field (with maybe the exception of Weaver). I also believe that if no strong deterrent had been put in place after the scandal then flood gates would have been wide open for more and more fixing scandals in games that actually mattered which very well could have damaged the game's credibility for good.

If you want to believe that Kenesaw Landis was at all credible in regard to either his career as a Federal Judge or as the Commissioner of MLB, you can ...... I happen to know, through extensive research, that nothing could be further from the truth.

I have no idea about Landis' record as a judge, so I'll take your word on it. Also, I don't think he was baseball's white knight, but I do believe he had a pretty large impact on cleaning the game up which you're shortchanging. So we'll probably just have to agree to disagree there as well.

[YDFL Commish]

Damn, this thread has gone off the rails. Movie it to a other forum.

[IndyNorm]

Damn, this thread has gone off the rails. Movie it to a other forum.

Well unfortunately we have nothing better to talk about :eek:

[Colts And Orioles]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the trial a complete sham ???




o


The trial was a sham.

3 signed confessions were mysteriously lost.

2 of the confessions were legitimate (Cicotte and Williams) while the 3rd "confession" was not (Joe Jackson) ...... Jackson could not read and write, and was coerced into signing the confession with an X mark. Jackson's "confession" was completely written out for him in advance.

o






I could definitely see this playing out where Landis saw the Cobb/Speaker game as the tip of the iceberg, so decided it best to keep the punishment in house (Cobb and Speaker were both let go from their respective teams in 1926 and never rehired as managers) and then write into the MLB bylaws the penatlies for gambling on the game. Pure speculation on my part, but IMO not unreasonable at all. And it aligns w/ the final tidbit from the article I posted yesterday as from what I know about Cobb he would definitely be the type that if he's going down he's taking the ship with him.





o


This is what make Landis a complete phony, hypocrite, and why he deserves no credit for allegedly "cleaning up baseball."

With the Black Sox, Landis made it abundantly clear, with no wiggle room whatsoever, not even for Buck Weaver and Joe Jackson who both played to the best of their abilities, that any type of fixing and/or gambling would not be tolerated, and that they would never play professional baseball ever again.

But when he had hard evidence of other games being fixed (and gambled on), and with Ty Cobb asserting that if he went down he would tell all and bring many others down with him, Landis conveniently acted like a big pussy, and ignored it ........ Therefore, Landis DID NOT clean up baseball ...... he carefully and expediently cherry-picked which scandal (and which players) that he would come down hard on, and when an even bigger mess was put on his desk, he ignored it ....... that was nothing short of cowardly and disingenuous, and it absolutely drives home the point that I have been making about him all along. If Ty Cobb had hard evidence of 30 or 40 other players fixing games, and if Landis TRULY wanted to clean up the game and give it credibility, then Landis would have and should have dealt with each and every one of those players and banned them all for life, just like he did with the Black Sox ........ but he didn't do that, therefore her was a complete hypocrite, therefore he did not "clean up" baseball, and he deserves no credit other than coming along after the fact and conveniently dealing with only what he chose to deal with.

o

[YDFL Commish]

And it continues!

[YDFL Commish]

o


I like Ballard.

o

Not my point. Nobody cares whatever happened a century ago that is not relevant to a topic that this forum is meant to discuss.

[IndyNorm]

Not my point. Nobody cares whatever happened a century ago that is not relevant to a topic that this forum is meant to discuss.

To be fair there are at least 4 regular posters who have been discussing this over the past couple of days. But if you really want I suppose we can go back to arguing over whether Ballard should have been fired or not.

[Oldcolt]

I don't know where to take this. Nothing new Colt to talk about, unless you got something. I'm sick of arguing about Ballard, don't give a shit about the playoffs and find it fascinating what other people have become experts at.

[IndyNorm]

I started up a new thread on the General Discussion board.

https://www.coltfreaks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207595

[Colts And Orioles]

Not my point.





o


I know what your point was.

I was making a joke with a meaningless, Ballard-related statement because of the thread derailment.

o

[Puck]

Locked On Colts Podcast
@LockedOnColts
·
2h
GOOD CALL: Why Indianapolis Colts Retaining Shane Steichen Was the RIGHT MOVE


https://youtu.be/4jGD4jHOWNM