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sherck
09-14-2017, 12:54 PM
From Stampede Blue
Last week Indy Star writer Zak Keefer wrote an interesting piece on Colts owner Jim Irsay and how he views the franchise, Jim Irsay: The owner who’s willing to lose. It’s a long one but worth the read. The basic premise is that Irsay may be willing to let the franchise lose now in order to secure a more prosperous future while Luck is still in his prime.

As a fan, when I first saw the article, I was upset. I want my favorite team to win. I want them to win now. I want them to win often. I don’t even want to think about having an owner who is willing to lose. That’s Browns logic, not Colts logic.

After some reflection, I can at least see why Irsay may be willing to lose this season, to have the opportunity to win more championships in the future. As Keefer noted, Irsay is on record as saying he’d be more than willing to sacrifice several of those 12-win seasons for another Lombardi. He seems willing to lose now to win later.

The idea is so Machiavellian.

It’s so Irsay.

Here’s the thing, Irsay isn’t wrong. It pains me to say he may even be right. While Irsay would never say they are tanking this year, most of the moves this off-season make it seems like that’s the case.

The team quelled the blood lust of the fans by cutting ties with inept former GM Ryan Grigson and brought in one of the most desired young GM candidates in years with Chris Ballard. Ballard, for good reason, then promptly jettisoned half of the roster Grigson assembled. It builds a buffer period for the front office and staff so if this season does not go well, there’s a built in excuse.

The team kept Chuck Pagano on as head coach. Pagano is proving time and again that he’s in over his head. Most of the fan base liked Pagano so the immediate reaction wasn’t terrible. But, as Pagano showed again this past weekend against the 49ers, umm... I mean Rams, he is not an NFL head coach. He’s a rah-rah guy. He’s a defensive assistant, maybe a defensive coordinator at best.

Pagano will lose games he’s supposed to win. Then when this season is over, the team can jettison Pagano and bring in Ballard’s choice for head coach. Who knows? Maybe Irsay even presented this option to Ballard when he hired him. This may help explain why Ballard agreed to retain Pagano, even when it was clear to see that he also belonged on the chopping block.

It can be argued that the team failed to address the backup QB situation when it appeared likely Andrew Luck would not return in time to start the season. I believe this criticism is a bit overblown. Cam Newton had the same surgery and is back on the field, although he is struggling, so the Panthers may have brought him back too soon.

If the team felt Luck was supposed to be back, why sign a high priced veteran QB to be a backup? I wouldn’t have. When it became apparent Luck wasn’t coming back, Ballard made a trade for a solid backup in Jacoby Brissett. It was late in the process but they still made the move.

The team has been extra cautious with Luck. Luck is the franchise. The offensive line is still rather offensive without Ryan Kelly in the fold. If I’m Chris Ballard, Luck is staying far away from opponents while I am forced to start a rookie undrafted free agent at center. Besides, it’s best long-term to not bring Luck back too soon.

Keeping Luck out gives Ballard an opportunity to let Pagano coach himself out of a job. Without Luck digging the team out of holes that were partially created by shoddy planning, Pagano’s coaching deficiencies will be highlighted. After seeing this past week’s game, I’d guess that the decision has already been made.

But what’s the end-game if Irsay is willing to let the team lose? How can the Colts benefit?

Well, it just so happens that the 2018 NFL Draft is projected to have the best overall QB class since Luck was entered the league. This talented class generates additional value in high draft picks, increasing the likelihood that teams can trade back for a King’s ransom.

The Titans received two first, two second and two third round picks from the Rams for an “adequate” starting NFL QB in Jared Goff. The talent in this QB class is far greater than Goff’s class. It is reasonable to think that the Colts could receive an even more attractive offer from a team that is in love with any of the top three QBs, but also happens to be outside the top five picks.

Yes, tanking this season would be almost as frustrating as 2011 when the team went 2-14. However, this year the Colts will be in a position to make a trade accumulate picks. Team in New York could use a QB and one of them has multiple first round picks in 2018.

Also, let’s be real. The current Colts roster is not talented enough to win their division, let alone a championship. Grigson really, really set the franchise back and it will take time to fix those issues. The best way to fix those issues is through the draft. The best way to get the best players in the draft is to lose and receive the highest picks possible. Even better, trade those high picks for even more early round selections and you might make a rebuilding effort even faster.

It’s not ideal. Nothing about it would be fun.

Wait, snap out of it. The team isn’t tanking, they’re just being extra cautious with bringing Luck back, right? They won’t lose now to win later, right?

It’s so Machiavellian.

It’s so Irsay.
So, I went and looked at this idea that the 2018 QB draft class is supposed to be good and, okay, it appears that it might not be a stretch.

There are a ton of writers out there talking about the QBs that will be coming out for the 2018 draft with a couple of projections saying as many as 6 QBs drafted in the top 20 spots. It will not end up that way but it gives you an idea that the QB class of 2018 is pretty stacked.

A bounty of 2018 picks for a top 5 draft position along with a a lot of free salary cap space ($85m) and the (hopeful) development of Hooker, Wilson, Basham, Mack along with a gelling of the defensive front seven could make for an interesting 2018 even if that means 2017 is going to suck.

Food for thought. I am not saying that is what is happening but....

Walk Worthy,

rcubed
09-14-2017, 01:27 PM
From Stampede Blue

So, I went and looked at this idea that the 2018 QB draft class is supposed to be good and, okay, it appears that it might not be a stretch.

There are a ton of writers out there talking about the QBs that will be coming out for the 2018 draft with a couple of projections saying as many as 6 QBs drafted in the top 20 spots. It will not end up that way but it gives you an idea that the QB class of 2018 is pretty stacked.

A bounty of 2018 picks for a top 5 draft position along with a a lot of free salary cap space ($85m) and the (hopeful) development of Hooker, Wilson, Basham, Mack along with a gelling of the defensive front seven could make for an interesting 2018 even if that means 2017 is going to suck.

Food for thought. I am not saying that is what is happening but....

Walk Worthy,
I read this and the keefer article. I hope irsay is this smart. He wanted a rebuild with grigson, they had early success and they went for it only to fail miserably. He finally realized he needed to do it again and will hopefully be patient this time with ballard.

Stink for a couple years and build a balanced and solid team. If we get a high pick and some team wants to give us a treasure trove of picks for a shiny new QB, then do it.

HoosierinFL
09-14-2017, 02:01 PM
So it might be a good QB class in 2018 but what about pass rushers? I don't follow college ball enough to know.

1965southpaw
09-14-2017, 02:29 PM
So I just wrote in another thread that I think we should trade back a high draft pick......but to answer your question...is Irsay that smart.....no. I think this strategy is all Ballard. Irsay had to jettison someone last season and picked the one who is easier to replace....GM since none of his choices in coach were available to him. After that, Ballard influenced Irsay that they needed a long term view to fix the dumpster fire. Do I know this? Of course not. But it's what I believe. Usually the truth is what is most obvious.

Butter
09-14-2017, 03:44 PM
I prefer this theory to the alternative.

Dam8610
09-14-2017, 04:37 PM
Apparently a few of you want Arden Key. I can only imagine the puns that will happen with a successful Colts team whose top 2 players are named Luck and Key.

omahacolt
09-14-2017, 05:29 PM
we aren't intentionally losing

Brylok
09-14-2017, 05:58 PM
we aren't intentionally losing
Nope. This isn't the NBA. This is a combination of chickens coming home to roost and Luck's shoulder taking longer to heal than they expected.

ChoppedWood
09-14-2017, 06:08 PM
we aren't intentionally losing

Scott Tolzein told me you are lyin'.

Maniac
09-14-2017, 06:12 PM
From Stampede Blue

So, I went and looked at this idea that the 2018 QB draft class is supposed to be good and, okay, it appears that it might not be a stretch.

There are a ton of writers out there talking about the QBs that will be coming out for the 2018 draft with a couple of projections saying as many as 6 QBs drafted in the top 20 spots. It will not end up that way but it gives you an idea that the QB class of 2018 is pretty stacked.

A bounty of 2018 picks for a top 5 draft position along with a a lot of free salary cap space ($85m) and the (hopeful) development of Hooker, Wilson, Basham, Mack along with a gelling of the defensive front seven could make for an interesting 2018 even if that means 2017 is going to suck.

Food for thought. I am not saying that is what is happening but....

Walk Worthy,

If there are 6 in the top 20, that waters down the value of the top picks unless you have 1 or 2 that are far better than the others. Ideally you want a top pick in a draft with only 1 or 2 legit qb prospects, because that increases the value of that pick for a qb needy team. Are there a couple qb's that are much much better than the other top prospects? I'm not familiar with the college prospects.

nate505
09-14-2017, 06:31 PM
Is tanking even a great strategy in the NFL? Maybe for Luck it was, but way more often than not pro bowlers/impact players are found all over the first round.

omahacolt
09-14-2017, 06:32 PM
Is tanking even a great strategy in the NFL? Maybe for Luck it was, but way more often than not pro bowlers/impact players are found all over the first round.

nobody tanks.

the colts didn't for luck and they won't this year. tanking isn't a thing.

1965southpaw
09-14-2017, 06:57 PM
nobody tanks.

the colts didn't for luck and they won't this year. tanking isn't a thing.

If we did I propose we call it suck for chuck.

Dewey 5
09-14-2017, 07:57 PM
Anyone that keeps Pagano for 6 years is a fucking idiot. So throw the smart thing out the window.

bertjones
09-14-2017, 08:21 PM
What it is is simply the chickens coming home to roost for having
an unstable owner, having made poor drafting and FA decisions and
for having an inadequate coach. Maybe it's a perfect storm. Contrived
it is not.

ChoppedWood
09-15-2017, 07:14 AM
IF, IF, IF they are going this route and this is orchestrated- which some have sort of drawn the comparison to the Spurs with Robinson and Duncan- which has worked out "decently" I suppose, then hey I am all for it- we are THAT bad, we have zero chance at competing for anything other than the difference between a top 3 pick without him and a top 12 with him....

So IF this is happening and this is what Jim is preaching with the patience speak and why Ballard keeps pushing out the expectation for return of Luck...IF this is the case...

Why is Green in and where is Wilson and Hooker? IF this is the plan, then you need these guys getting reps right now- growing through the losses. That's not happening so far, instead we continue to see trash put on the field in position after position.

So, I don't see it being the case, I see it more of a combination of truly poor decisions in personnel over the course of several years- including this one, plus a coach who I truly don't think if he had AP in his prime lined up against Mike Hart he would be able to determine who was the better player...

Indiana V2
09-15-2017, 07:49 AM
IF, IF, IF they are going this route and this is orchestrated- which some have sort of drawn the comparison to the Spurs with Robinson and Duncan- which has worked out "decently" I suppose, then hey I am all for it- we are THAT bad, we have zero chance at competing for anything other than the difference between a top 3 pick without him and a top 12 with him....

So IF this is happening and this is what Jim is preaching with the patience speak and why Ballard keeps pushing out the expectation for return of Luck...IF this is the case...

Why is Green in and where is Wilson and Hooker? IF this is the plan, then you need these guys getting reps right now- growing through the losses. That's not happening so far, instead we continue to see trash put on the field in position after position.

So, I don't see it being the case, I see it more of a combination of truly poor decisions in personnel over the course of several years- including this one, plus a coach who I truly don't think if he had AP in his prime lined up against Mike Hart he would be able to determine who was the better player...

And why waste another year of Luck? Especially if he's healthy. That's a lot of money standing on the sidelines.

YDFL Commish
09-15-2017, 08:32 AM
Why is Green in and where is Wilson and Hooker? IF this is the plan, then you need these guys getting reps right now- growing through the losses. That's not happening so far, instead we continue to see trash put on the field in position after position.


It's not a plan. I repeat it's not a plan. It's Pagano being a poor talent evaluator and idiot, just like he's always been.

DrSpaceman
09-15-2017, 10:12 AM
You don't need to tank in the NFL to become a great team.

Its not like the NBA where you have no chance if you are not hitting on your top picks and FAs.

If it did work, the Browns should have won 10 SBs by now

kitekrazy
09-16-2017, 04:18 PM
Is tanking even a great strategy in the NFL? Maybe for Luck it was, but way more often than not pro bowlers/impact players are found all over the first round.

So are busts. We traded for one and drafted another one.

I do wonder if would have been an improvement for drafting if the Colts went 6-10 instead of 8-8. 8-8 seemed like an attempt to save one's job.

testcase448
09-21-2017, 02:02 PM
we aren't intentionally losing

True, the Colts suck this bad. It's not a conspiracy or even a bad dream we'll wake up from

The Colts really are a pitiful franchise right now

Brylok
09-22-2017, 11:16 AM
True, the Colts suck this bad. It's not a conspiracy or even a bad dream we'll wake up from

The Colts really are a pitiful franchise right now
It isn't a pitiful situation, it's a rebuild. They were always going to struggle this season. People need to come down from the ledge that they shouldn't have climbed up on in the first place.

Indiana V2
09-22-2017, 05:31 PM
It isn't a pitiful situation, it's a rebuild. They were always going to struggle this season. People need to come down from the ledge that they shouldn't have climbed up on in the first place.

It's pitiful that we have to rebuild...again.

omahacolt
09-22-2017, 06:28 PM
It isn't a pitiful situation, it's a rebuild. They were always going to struggle this season. People need to come down from the ledge that they shouldn't have climbed up on in the first place.

yeah but it is the afc south

how bad would they really struggle with a healthy luck?

Brylok
09-22-2017, 10:41 PM
yeah but it is the afc south

how bad would they really struggle with a healthy luck?
With everyone healthy, might win the division and then lose the first playoff game. Ballard needs more time to add quality young talent through the draft. Rolling into the season with Tolzien starting and all the injuries should have tempered expectations.