Doyel: Most Colts injury update ever: Darius Leonard's ankle masked severity of back

[JAFF]

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2022/06/07/colts-lb-darius-leonards-ankle-injury-masked-need-back-surgery/10004684002/

Doyel: Most Colts injury update ever: Darius Leonard's ankle masked severity of back issue
Gregg Doyel
Indianapolis Star
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INDIANAPOLIS – The Indianapolis Colts are talking about Darius Leonard’s back, but I’m thinking about Andrew Luck’s shoulder.

Colts coach Frank Reich is saying Leonard underwent back surgery Tuesday but should be ready for the 2022 NFL season opener, and I’m thinking of Luck undergoing shoulder surgery in January 2017 and missing all of the 2017 season. Reich is saying he’s “optimistic” about Leonard, and I’m remembering Reich saying he was “optimistic” about Andrew Luck on Aug. 9, 2019.

Luck retired 15 days later.

Perhaps none of this is fair – not to Leonard, not to Reich and not to the Colts, no matter how many conspiracy-theory loons say the Colts “lied” in 2019 – but we’ve earned the right to our pessimism, even our cynicism. If there’s even a chance of the sky falling on the Colts, find a fallout shelter. Because it’s coming down.


OK, so maybe not every time. If you’d like to read something comforting, I’ll remind you that quarterback Carson Wentz and guard Quenton Nelson were diagnosed with similarly strange foot injuries in early August 2021, each having a piece of bone mysteriously break loose, and were given the same bizarre recovery timeline (5-12 weeks) – and both were ready for the regular-season opener five weeks later.

See? Good news!

Now then, Wentz and Nelson and several other key players – including Darius Leonard, come to think of it – infamously took an anti-vaccine stance last season and were rewarded by catching the coronavirus at the absolute worst time, late in the season, when the Colts choked away a spot in the 2021 NFL playoffs. We’d been warning you for months to carry an umbrella or a hardhat, because with this team’s ridiculous vaccine rate, the sky sure might fall.

And I’ll be damned.

Here we go again.

AFC inside linebacker Darius Leonard of the Indianapolis Colts (53) looks on during Pro Bowl NFL football practice, Saturday, February 5, 2022, in Las Vegas.
Doyel on Colts' greatest hits:

After Colts' choke, we await fate of Carson Wentz
Colts QB Andrew Luck shocks world by retiring
Think practice would've helped Carson Wentz vs. Raiders? He doesn't.
Can't make this up: Ankle injury hid Darius Leonard's back injury

Darius Leonard first noticed something wrong with his back “early in the offseason,” Reich said. He wasn’t giving much in the way of details – when I asked Reich where Leonard underwent surgery, he said only, “Out West” – so I can’t tell you if “early in the offseason” means January, shortly after the Colts choked away that playoff spot, or February or March or April.


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Right now you might be wondering, as I’m wondering: If the Colts knew about this back issue early in the offseason, why the hell didn’t Leonard have surgery sooner? Turns out, there’s a reason:

The Colts didn’t know how badly the back was injured, because Leonard hasn’t been able to participate in organized team activities…

… because of his injured ankle!

Ha!

You know what they say about history repeating itself, right? Something about Darius Leonard waiting until June to have surgery on a lingering issue, and then having it affect him early in the regular season. That’s what happened last year, with his ankle:


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Leonard’s ankle bothered him during the 2020 season, but he didn’t have surgery until June 2021, then started last season slowly – 17 tackles, total, in the first three games – as the Colts limped with him to an 0-3 start.

The ankle was an issue all season, you might recall, with Leonard answering a question about it in November by saying only, “It’s attached.”


Here we go again, with the ankle bothering Leonard again this offseason. No surgery, of course. Because why on earth, after the past 12 months, would anyone think his ankle isn’t completely healed? Meanwhile, his inability to practice on that good-as-new ankle masked a back injury that required surgery Tuesday.

Here’s how Reich broke that news, opening his media briefing after the first day of minicamp Tuesday like this:

“Just an update on Darius,” he said, “we continue to monitor his ankle and he is not going to need a second procedure.”

So far, so good.

“But he’s not here,” Reich continued, “because what has happened, he has a back issue that’s been a progressive thing that started early in the offseason and was fine but it’s just been something that’s progressed and we just recently made the evaluation (after) consulting with various doctors and trainers that he’s going to have a procedure done on his back.”

Pause.

“In fact it was today.”

Darius Leonard sure is small, and he sure gets hurt a lot. Hmm...

You have to wonder about Darius, you know? He’s small for a linebacker. Like, tiny. And he loves it, bragging that he weighs 210 pounds or something like that, because it’s a badge of honor to Leonard – a product of South Carolina State – to share the field with all those monsters and come out a star. Leonard sees himself as an underdog, almost identical to the self-evaluation of former Colts defensive end Robert Mathis (from Alabama A&M), and he’s right:


It is impressive that Leonard can play such a violent game with such a lithe frame.

It would be more impressive if he’d stop getting hurt.

So you wonder: Is this just the price of admission for the Colts of having one of the fastest, smallest linebackers in the NFL? Wondering when he’ll get hurt next, and then wondering how much offseason time he’ll waste before having surgery to fix it?

Could be. Back surgery is no joke, and Reich would go only so far Tuesday to say, “If all goes according to plan, he should be ready for the regular season.”

Terrific. Best-case scenario, everything going exactly as it should, Darius Leonard will be ready for the Colts’ 2022 opener at Houston on Sept. 11.

On the bright side, it’s only June 7. The game in Houston is three months away. The sky is not falling. Not yet. Keep your positive thoughts close.

But keep your umbrella closer.

[rm1369]

I honestly have no idea what to think here. Selfish player, team mismanagement, or just plain bad luck? I could make an argument for any of them. Ultimately all I know is Leonard is one of the guys most likely to carry this team to a SB and yet he’s also the guy whose contract I think they are most likely to regret. Great player on the field, I just always get the impression he’s lacking something important off of it. Hopefully he’s truly ready week one and not “working his way into playing shape” ready for week one. This D needs him if they are to avoid another slow start.

[apballin]

I honestly have no idea what to think here. Selfish player, team mismanagement, or just plain bad luck? I could make an argument for any of them. Ultimately all I know is Leonard is one of the guys most likely to carry this team to a SB and yet he’s also the guy whose contract I think they are most likely to regret. Great player on the field, I just always get the impression he’s lacking something important off of it. Hopefully he’s truly ready week one and not “working his way into playing shape” ready for week one. This D needs him if they are to avoid another slow start.

He’s a competitor and I have faith in him, hopefully this adds more fuel to his fire

[ChoppedWood]

With this group who knows what the truth is, he has probably had micro-fracture surgery on his knee and will never be able to run again and we'll be told 2 days before the regular season that he actually retired on June 7th, but the door was kept open in case he got a new knee put on.

This sucks, has all the makings of a Peyton Manning / Bob Sanders ending where a minor procedure eventually transforms into a year / career ender and they just didn't want to tell the truth for whatever reason (butts in seats???)

[Racehorse]

Why does every article by Doyel reek of hatred for the team? If they did not get posted here, I would not read his drivel.

[JAFF]

Why does every article by Doyel reek of hatred for the team? If they did not get posted here, I would not read his drivel.

Yes, he is a cynic. Calling out bullshit on the Colts organizations management of injury information is accurate. An ankle injury masking a back injury that requires surgery? What a pile of manure.

While I understand an individuals right to medical privacy, the Colts owe their ticket buyers an honest evaluation of the roster and player health. Indy fans have been conned twice in recent memory where the lack of a quality back up at Qb sank the season.

[Oldcolt]

Why does every article by Doyel reek of hatred for the team? If they did not get posted here, I would not read his drivel.

This article is pure bullshit, pure conjecture with zero reporting to back anything he says up. He seems to be searching for some clever angle but comes off as a dick lately.

[rm1369]

This article is pure bullshit, pure conjecture with zero reporting to back anything he says up. He seems to be searching for some clever angle but comes off as a dick lately.

The article certainly comes off as Doyle having an axe to grind, but it’s pretty damn hard to say it’s bullshit. The team’s explanation rings of bullshit though. It’s pure conjecture because that’s how the team plays injuries. You can defend the teams stance and reasoning, but a reporter pointing out the team has a history of lying about this stuff is pretty damn accurate - even if it’s obvious Doyle is purposely being harsh. Honestly they deserve the treatment on this one.

[Racehorse]

The article certainly comes off as Doyle having an axe to grind, but it’s pretty damn hard to say it’s bullshit. The team’s explanation rings of bullshit though. It’s pure conjecture because that’s how the team plays injuries. You can defend the teams stance and reasoning, but a reporter pointing out the team has a history of lying about this stuff is pretty damn accurate - even if it’s obvious Doyle is purposely being harsh. Honestly they deserve the treatment on this one.

The clown is a hack. I have no use for such types. Kravitz wasn't even this bad.

[Oldcolt]

The article certainly comes off as Doyle having an axe to grind, but it’s pretty damn hard to say it’s bullshit. The team’s explanation rings of bullshit though. It’s pure conjecture because that’s how the team plays injuries. You can defend the teams stance and reasoning, but a reporter pointing out the team has a history of lying about this stuff is pretty damn accurate - even if it’s obvious Doyle is purposely being harsh. Honestly they deserve the treatment on this one.

By bullshit I did not mean that what he says is out of the question. It is one thing for us freaks to speculate and bitch-hell that's what fans do. This guy is putting this clap trap in the Star behind a pay wall-I expect more from someone who makes a living reporting. Like maybe some information that acutely informs me of some new facts to back up his assertions. The Colts hide their injury shit-nothing new, they did it way before Doyel arrived. All NFL teams do it.

[JAFF]

This article is pure bullshit, pure conjecture with zero reporting to back anything he says up. He seems to be searching for some clever angle but comes off as a dick lately.

I would say there is truth in this story. Going back to Manning’s neck. They were not up front about Luck and his first lost season and or his last attempt to play.

I know they need to sell tickets, lying to fans to up sales knowing the Qb will be out all season is fraud. All teams do it, some more deceitful (belicheat) than others.

I have had season tickets in the past, and have debated spending my retirement $$$ on golf or Colts tickets. It will probably be golfing.

Its 180 mil round trip for a game, and at $5 a gallon I have concerns. I see a lot of improvement on paper, which doesnt mean squat. Now I doubt what I can trust anything the Colts tell me about the health of the team.

I can enjoy the game from my couch, its a better buy with less financial risk

[Ironshaft]

I would say there is truth in this story. Going back to Manning’s neck. They were not up front about Luck and his first lost season and or his last attempt to play.

I know they need to sell tickets, lying to fans to up sales knowing the Qb will be out all season is fraud. All teams do it, some more deceitful (belicheat) than others.

I have had season tickets in the past, and have debated spending my retirement $$$ on golf or Colts tickets. It will probably be golfing.

Its 180 mil round trip for a game, and at $5 a gallon I have concerns. I see a lot of improvement on paper, which doesnt mean squat. Now I doubt what I can trust anything the Colts tell me about the health of the team.

I can enjoy the game from my couch, its a better buy with less financial risk
$180m for a game? You buying part of the team, bro? :)

[Hoopsdoc]

I’m not surprised. As much as any player I’ve ever watched, Leonard leaves it all out there on the field.

[ChoppedWood]

JMV had someone on today- can't remember which reporter. Want to talk about something to be worried about- they apparently figured out Darius had a back problem AS A RESULT of the problems he was having with his ankle. That means nerve being compressed.

Hopefully just a routine discectomy and he is back to being the maniac in a couple months.

Regardless, if you listened to Frank's comments yesterday, this has EVERY bit the same feel as all the BS they ran up the flag pole with Peyton, Luck, Bob, and to some degree Edge. NONE of those ended well obviously.

Yeah I have a loaded axe when it comes to Frank but that stooge is such a tool. In the conference he gets pressed to outline what's wrong with Darius, not sure, just found out about it really, just know it's a back. Said he hadn't been in contact with Darius about it and he was just informed of this development. Then later goes on to say he has been in contact with Willis the whole time about his injury and rehab status. As Dachic blasted him for- what a pompus snide dick. Doesn't know shit about the injury to the most critical, most well paid, player on D and perhaps our most important player short of JT on the entire squad at the moment, but yeah, he keeps in daily touch with a safety that while good, IS NOT a cornerstone of this team.

More and more I wish we had someone other than him running this thing. I think is in way over his head.

[rm1369]

JMV had someone on today- can't remember which reporter. Want to talk about something to be worried about- they apparently figured out Darius had a back problem AS A RESULT of the problems he was having with his ankle. That means nerve being compressed.

Hopefully just a routine discectomy and he is back to being the maniac in a couple months.

Regardless, if you listened to Frank's comments yesterday, this has EVERY bit the same feel as all the BS they ran up the flag pole with Peyton, Luck, Bob, and to some degree Edge. NONE of those ended well obviously.

Yeah I have a loaded axe when it comes to Frank but that stooge is such a tool. In the conference he gets pressed to outline what's wrong with Darius, not sure, just found out about it really, just know it's a back. Said he hadn't been in contact with Darius about it and he was just informed of this development. Then later goes on to say he has been in contact with Willis the whole time about his injury and rehab status. As Dachic blasted him for- what a pompus snide dick. Doesn't know shit about the injury to the most critical, most well paid, player on D and perhaps our most important player short of JT on the entire squad at the moment, but yeah, he keeps in daily touch with a safety that while good, IS NOT a cornerstone of this team.

More and more I wish we had someone other than him running this thing. I think is in way over his head.

Frank wasn’t running the show with Luck or Peyton when it’s obvious the team lied about their status. You can make an argument the team as a whole is at fault, you can make an argument that all teams do it, you can make an argument that it’s really just bad luck…but I don’t think you can logically place the blame on Frank.

[JAFF]

$180m for a game? You buying part of the team, bro? :)

180 mile

[ChaosTheory]

So he had a compromised nerve in his back that affected his control of his ankle. But it wasn't a painful injury to his ankle. Crazy, the shit they figure out.

Regarding the article and the sentiment of feeling left in the dark... I would absolutely love to be in the loop on all things Colts. But honest to God, I can't bring myself to blame teams for not holding our (and journalists' like his guy) hands through the entire process.

Imagine they go through this months-long process trying to figure this thing out... the frustration of trying ankle surgery, rehab, and everything else... and eventually after all the back-and-forth, discovering that it's a back nerve causing an issue in the ankle.

Now imagine they take irrational fans and journalists with them on that whole ride. They realize it's much more preferable to go the route teams always do.

[Oldcolt]

If this ankle is due to his back (I highly doubt that) and they went ahead and cut on his ankle that is malpractice big time. More that likely that ankle injury kept him from exercising in such a way that the extent of his back injury wasn't apparent, ie. he wasn't able to move enough to let the injury be known.

[BCN#1]

Interesting development indeed and can see the link though ankle may be pushing it.

I had some issues with hip/knee pain and this ultimately culminated over this last year into L4 disc issue and what one opinion suggests spinal stenosis.

That said, my pain was really focused on the knee and hip. PT and meds no effect but infiltration gave some relief short term.

Going back end of this month for a procedure called Rizolysis where they insert a need focused on a set nerve or bundle and hit it with RF so not as invasive as all out surgery. Apparently good results from what I research and longer term relief than infiltations so fingers crossed in my case as I have a helluva time simply walking normal now and better than getting a rod inserted, bone fusion or other more aggresive approaches.

Perhaps this is an option for the maniac but with the high paid docs employed, I suppose this approach has been evaluated. I have worked in the medical field my entire adult life but this procedure was new to me so what the hell - ya learn something new everyday. :D

Hoping The Maniac is back messing up opposing players in short order!:)

[YDFL Commish]

Have any of you ever had sciatica? I have and it can cause you a pain that goes all the way down your leg.

It was so bad for me that I was 30 feet from my rental car and I used my key fob to unlock it and by the time I got to the car, it had re-locked itself.

My point is that doctors misdiagnose things all the time and some of that can be based on patient input. Pain in one area isn't always only related to that area.

Is Reich being forthright or not? Why speculate? His job is to coach the 90+ players available to him at this time. Not to give medical statements the very day he learns about an injury/surgery.

Do you think BB asks for medical insight into the nature of an injury when he has 100 other things to do? HELL NO! he's got a team to coach and tell me when player A will ready to participate.

Of course there is a human aspect to at as well. But Reich has no responsibility to divulge that to us, especially without the players consent.

Bottom line is that we have become media hogs, who believe that we deserve every but of team information that we ask for.

NOT SO FOLKS!

[ChoppedWood]

Have any of you ever had sciatica? I have and it can cause you a pain that goes all the way down your leg.

It was so bad for me that I was 30 feet from my rental car and I used my key fob to unlock it and by the time I got to the car, it had re-locked itself.

My point is that doctors misdiagnose things all the time and some of that can be based on patient input. Pain in one area isn't always only related to that area.

Is Reich being forthright or not? Why speculate? His job is to coach the 90+ players available to him at this time. Not to give medical statements the very day he learns about an injury/surgery.

Do you think BB asks for medical insight into the nature of an injury when he has 100 other things to do? HELL NO! he's got a team to coach and tell me when player A will ready to participate.

Of course there is a human aspect to at as well. But Reich has no responsibility to divulge that to us, especially without the players consent.

Bottom line is that we have become media hogs, who believe that we deserve every but of team information that we ask for.

NOT SO FOLKS!

Not what I am saying, don't think that's what anyone is saying. What is being said, by me at least, is Frank is not good at this shit. Anyone that believes he has no knowledge of the health of our best defensive player that by himself nearly got us into the playoffs and without him we are probably a 4 win team, is a dumbass. And he is the dumb ass that is so obtuse he can't even think far enough in front of his nose to basically poor cold water on his BS that he knows nothing at all about Darius situation by telling everyone he's walking step for step with the injured safety on his rehab journey instead.

The point being, Frank just isn't very good at doing this type of thing. Go BB, just say, "medical isn't my thing, I'm here to talk about the players me and my staff were coaching yesterday, you would need to talk to the docs about Darius or any other player that isn't practicing right now" and be done with it.

Oh and haven't seen it yet but now apparently Darius has issued some form of rebuke of what Frank said yesterday. Great!

[JAFF]

Not what I am saying, don't think that's what anyone is saying. What is being said, by me at least, is Frank is not good at this shit. Anyone that believes he has no knowledge of the health of our best defensive player that by himself nearly got us into the playoffs and without him we are probably a 4 win team, is a dumbass. And he is the dumb ass that is so obtuse he can't even think far enough in front of his nose to basically poor cold water on his BS that he knows nothing at all about Darius situation by telling everyone he's walking step for step with the injured safety on his rehab journey instead.

The point being, Frank just isn't very good at doing this type of thing. Go BB, just say, "medical isn't my thing, I'm here to talk about the players me and my staff were coaching yesterday, you would need to talk to the docs about Darius or any other player that isn't practicing right now" and be done with it.

Oh and haven't seen it yet but now apparently Darius has issued some form of rebuke of what Frank said yesterday. Great!

And 11 years ago, we found out that Manning had a neck injury that ended his season before it began.

Fast forward to 2015 and the beginning of the Andrew Luck saga of miss information on what he could or couldnt do, which led to his shocking retirement.

I understand about HIPPA, a players privacy, and personal rights. But the Colts have been dishonest on several occasions about star player availability in order to sell more tickets and that is wrong. 2019,They painted a rosey picture of Luck all off season, until he retired before the season started.

I love watching the Colts play in person. I am very hesitant to buy season tickets because they havent been able to figure out the Qb position. When Ryan steps up under center and shows he can still play, I will consider maybe buying some game tickets. Right now, wouldnt believe the Colts PR if they told me water is wet.

[apballin]

And 11 years ago, we found out that Manning had a neck injury that ended his season before it began.

Fast forward to 2015 and the beginning of the Andrew Luck saga of miss information on what he could or couldnt do, which led to his shocking retirement.

I understand about HIPPA, a players privacy, and personal rights. But the Colts have been dishonest on several occasions about star player availability in order to sell more tickets and that is wrong. 2019,They painted a rosey picture of Luck all off season, until he retired before the season started.

I love watching the Colts play in person. I am very hesitant to buy season tickets because they havent been able to figure out the Qb position. When Ryan steps up under center and shows he can still play, I will consider maybe buying some game tickets. Right now, wouldnt believe the Colts PR if they told me water is wet.

So take Colts PR out and look at facts…..

How many games have Matty Ice missed in his career???

[Oldcolt]

If it took them a year to figure out that his issue wasn't an ankle but was nerve impingement their doctors suck (especially if the surgery on his ankle was to fix the pain). Having said that it most likely was laparoscopic surgery and he should be fine for the regular season. Even if he isn't, no way in hell are we a 4 win team without him. He would hurt not to be there but we have depth to survive his loss. I doubt the Colts are being dishonest about Leonard's injury to sell tickets. It is the NFL way. Plus it is fairly obvious that nobody, including the doctors they use, knew what the hell was wrong with him.

[Colts And Orioles]

o


The Mets are in first place in the NL East, and they have been without their 2 best starting pitchers for much of the season ...... perhaps with their excellent running game, their highly-regarded new quarterback, and with one of the best GM's in football, the Colts can emulate something similar in 2022 if they have to go without such a great player such as Darius Leonard for an extended period of time.

o

[CletusPyle]

And 11 years ago, we found out that Manning had a neck injury that ended his season before it began.

I was at the game when Peyton suffered that neck injury. It was against the Washington Redskins (please forgive me Native Americans for being so insensitive)...they nearly ripped his head off, no penalty! Peyton only missed one play and was back in the game. I wondered how he could have came out of that with no serious injury, turns out it was worse than he let on at the time.

[Hoopsdoc]

If it took them a year to figure out that his issue wasn't an ankle but was nerve impingement their doctors suck (especially if the surgery on his ankle was to fix the pain). Having said that it most likely was laparoscopic surgery and he should be fine for the regular season. Even if he isn't, no way in hell are we a 4 win team without him. He would hurt not to be there but we have depth to survive his loss. I doubt the Colts are being dishonest about Leonard's injury to sell tickets. It is the NFL way. Plus it is fairly obvious that nobody, including the doctors they use, knew what the hell was wrong with him.

Chopped wood has an irrational hatred for Reich.

[Dam8610]

I was at the game when Peyton suffered that neck injury. It was against the Washington Redskins (please forgive me Native Americans for being so insensitive)...they nearly ripped his head off, no penalty! Peyton only missed one play and was back in the game. I wondered how he could have came out of that with no serious injury, turns out it was worse than he let on at the time.

I remember that hit, it was Philip Daniels and it was the dirtiest hit I'd ever seen. That's the whole reason I wasn't surprised by the Gregg Williams thing when he got suspended for the bounties a few years later. It looked like the Washington defense was trying to hurt him on that play.

[ChoppedWood]

Chopped wood has an irrational hatred for Reich.

It's not irrational, he sucks as a head dog. Thankfully that is starting to be called out by the local media instead of just gagging on his nuts as they have for far too long. I am glad this is clearly his prove it or lose it season. And for the sake of the team I hope he does prove he can do this, and I will own my apology to him if he does (from the reports out of the mini- Hines may be our # 2 in terms of catches, and if that's so, then good for him for f'king utilizing weapons vs burying them under the dirt of his rehab boy).

[JAFF]

It's not irrational, he sucks as a head dog. Thankfully that is starting to be called out by the local media instead of just gagging on his nuts as they have for far too long. I am glad this is clearly his prove it or lose it season. And for the sake of the team I hope he does prove he can do this, and I will own my apology to him if he does (from the reports out of the mini- Hines may be our # 2 in terms of catches, and if that's so, then good for him for f'king utilizing weapons vs burying them under the dirt of his rehab boy).

Dont hold back, tell us how you really feel.
:eek:

[ChoppedWood]

Dont hold back, tell us how you really feel.
:eek:

LOL!
It's true though. The more you look back on last year with more and more actual critical reviews by smart inner circle football people and the reports of how this offense has already in just a few days on the practice field appeared to look entirely different- with the same personnel mind you as it has been Hines Patmon and Dulin not the rook getting the hype (yeah there's still a long ways to go and we won't know for 3-4 games if it is a real change), but the over arching theme is- Wentz was just f'ing trashing every principle of Reich's scheme. I know I sound like a broken record but I am ON RECORD with it- sure blame Wentz, and he deserves it for sure, but when it is THAT pervasive, that extends way beyond Wentz- that's much more on Frank for not having the sack to put a stop to it. So in my eyes, we missed the playoffs last year as a result of Frank refusing to give up on the concept that Wentz was this conquering hero figure that would lead us to the promised land if we just trusted him. Terrible decision and it cost us bigtime.

[Hoopsdoc]

LOL!
It's true though. The more you look back on last year with more and more actual critical reviews by smart inner circle football people and the reports of how this offense has already in just a few days on the practice field appeared to look entirely different- with the same personnel mind you as it has been Hines Patmon and Dulin not the rook getting the hype (yeah there's still a long ways to go and we won't know for 3-4 games if it is a real change), but the over arching theme is- Wentz was just f'ing trashing every principle of Reich's scheme. I know I sound like a broken record but I am ON RECORD with it- sure blame Wentz, and he deserves it for sure, but when it is THAT pervasive, that extends way beyond Wentz- that's much more on Frank for not having the sack to put a stop to it. So in my eyes, we missed the playoffs last year as a result of Frank refusing to give up on the concept that Wentz was this conquering hero figure that would lead us to the promised land if we just trusted him. Terrible decision and it cost us bigtime.

They gambled on Wentz and Reich deserves criticism for it. But once the season started, there was no other decent option. They were gonna go as far as Wentz took them because he was the only option.

[apballin]

LOL!
It's true though. The more you look back on last year with more and more actual critical reviews by smart inner circle football people and the reports of how this offense has already in just a few days on the practice field appeared to look entirely different- with the same personnel mind you as it has been Hines Patmon and Dulin not the rook getting the hype (yeah there's still a long ways to go and we won't know for 3-4 games if it is a real change), but the over arching theme is- Wentz was just f'ing trashing every principle of Reich's scheme. I know I sound like a broken record but I am ON RECORD with it- sure blame Wentz, and he deserves it for sure, but when it is THAT pervasive, that extends way beyond Wentz- that's much more on Frank for not having the sack to put a stop to it. So in my eyes, we missed the playoffs last year as a result of Frank refusing to give up on the concept that Wentz was this conquering hero figure that would lead us to the promised land if we just trusted him. Terrible decision and it cost us bigtime.

I totally agree Reichs love for Wentz clouded his judgment, I disagree he’s a bad coach. He’s had a different QB every season and hasn’t gotten a true camp out of any of them due to injury Covid or whatever. So I’m very excited to see this offense ran by a QB with an entire camp to work with Reich

[ChaosTheory]

I totally agree Reichs love for Wentz clouded his judgment, I disagree he’s a bad coach. He’s had a different QB every season and hasn’t gotten a true camp out of any of them due to injury Covid or whatever. So I’m very excited to see this offense ran by a QB with an entire camp to work with Reich

Aside from '19 when a backup had to start on two weeks notice, we put up like 27-28pts/gm under Reich. He's had a good QB twice and they were good seasons. People say, "He hasn't even won the divison" during his good seasons. But...

After Luck came back from the dead and guys like Castonzo/Hilton got healthy we went 10-1 including spanking the division champs twice including the playoffs on the road.

In 2020, with old man Rivers, we went 11-5 and playoffs. We beat Tennessee 34-17 on the road and only two weeks later we lost to them 45-26. What happened? Well, Buckner, Autry, Okereke, Taylor, and Kelly were out due to Covid/injury; then Castonzo and Willis got hurt and left the game. Seven starters might account for a 36-point swing in two weeks.

(I'm just pointing out that a shit roll of the dice like that can be the difference between winning the division by two games and losing the division to a tie-breaker.)

[Colts And Orioles]

Aside from '19 when a backup had to start on two weeks notice, we put up like 27-28pts/gm under Reich. He's had a good QB twice and they were good seasons. People say, "He hasn't even won the divison" during his good seasons. But...

After Luck came back from the dead and guys like Castonzo/Hilton got healthy we went 10-1 including spanking the division champs twice including the playoffs on the road.

In 2020, with old man Rivers, we went 11-5 and playoffs. We beat Tennessee 34-17 on the road and only two weeks later we lost to them 45-26. What happened? Well, Buckner, Autry, Okereke, Taylor, and Kelly were out due to Covid/injury; then Castonzo and Willis got hurt and left the game. Seven starters might account for a 36-point swing in two weeks.

(I'm just pointing out that a shit roll of the dice like that can be the difference between winning the division by two games and losing the division to a tie-breaker.)




o


And/or playing in a division in which an 8-8 record will be good enough to win it.

The shittiest rolls of the dice since the implement of the 16-game schedule in 1978 were the 1985 Broncos and the 2008 Patriots, both of whom went 11-5 and didn't make the post-season.




https://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/1985-den


https://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/2008-ne

o

[Kray007]

It's not irrational, he sucks as a head dog. Thankfully that is starting to be called out by the local media instead of just gagging on his nuts as they have for far too long. I am glad this is clearly his prove it or lose it season. And for the sake of the team I hope he does prove he can do this, and I will own my apology to him if he does (from the reports out of the mini- Hines may be our # 2 in terms of catches, and if that's so, then good for him for f'king utilizing weapons vs burying them under the dirt of his rehab boy).

The dirt of his rehab boy?

[Kray007]

LOL!
It's true though. The more you look back on last year with more and more actual critical reviews by smart inner circle football people and the reports of how this offense has already in just a few days on the practice field appeared to look entirely different- with the same personnel mind you as it has been Hines Patmon and Dulin not the rook getting the hype (yeah there's still a long ways to go and we won't know for 3-4 games if it is a real change), but the over arching theme is- Wentz was just f'ing trashing every principle of Reich's scheme. I know I sound like a broken record but I am ON RECORD with it- sure blame Wentz, and he deserves it for sure, but when it is THAT pervasive, that extends way beyond Wentz- that's much more on Frank for not having the sack to put a stop to it. So in my eyes, we missed the playoffs last year as a result of Frank refusing to give up on the concept that Wentz was this conquering hero figure that would lead us to the promised land if we just trusted him. Terrible decision and it cost us bigtime.

It seems like you’re blaming Reich for Ballard’s failure to sign a competent backup QB. Like it or not, the fact is that Reich was stuck with starting Wentz. The Colts were in the hunt for a playoff spot, and plan B was Ehlinger.

[ChaosTheory]

o


And/or playing in a division in which an 8-8 record will be good enough to win it.

The shittiest rolls of the dice since the implement of the 16-game schedule in 1978 were the 1985 Broncos and the 2008 Patriots, both of whom went 11-5 and didn't make the post-season.




https://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/1985-den


https://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/2008-ne

o

Yep, brutal. I always think of the 2010 Saints. I don't feel bad because I hate them, but they went 11-5 and had to travel three time zones to Seattle because the Seahawks won the NFC West with a 7-9 record. Seattle ends up beating them because it's football.

Then there's lesser examples like the '08 Colts going 12-4 but the Titans decided to start the season 10-0 and took the division.

Etc., etc...

[IndyNorm]

Yep, brutal. I always think of the 2010 Saints. I don't feel bad because I hate them, but they went 11-5 and had to travel three time zones to Seattle because the Seahawks won the NFC West with a 7-9 record. Seattle ends up beating them because it's football.

Then there's lesser examples like the '08 Colts going 12-4 but the Titans decided to start the season 10-0 and took the division.

Etc., etc...

And the '08 Colts had the similar experience of traveling to the west coast to play the 8-8 Chargers and of course we lost (although we had plenty of chances win that one walking away).

The NFL really should change the playoff seeding since there's no reason a 7/8 win team should be seeded higher than a 10+ win team.

[Colts And Orioles]

And the '08 Colts had the similar experience of traveling to the west coast to play the 8-8 Chargers and of course we lost (although we had plenty of chances win that one walking away).

The NFL really should change the playoff seeding since there's no reason a 7/8 win team should be seeded higher than a 10+ win team.


o


2008 was a personal heartbreaker for me, because we beat the Steelers in Pittsburgh, and were the hottest team in football that went from 3-4 to 12-4. I really believe that the Colts were the only team in the AFC that was capable of beating the Steelers in the post-season that year (as they had already done so in the regular season), and that the Steelers and their fans all breathed a sigh of relief when the Colts were KO'd by the Chargers in overtime.

o

[Colts And Orioles]

Yep, brutal. I always think of the 2010 Saints. I don't feel bad because I hate them, but they went 11-5 and had to travel three time zones to Seattle because the Seahawks won the NFC West with a 7-9 record. Seattle ends up beating them because it's football.

Then there's lesser examples like the '08 Colts going 12-4 but the Titans decided to start the season 10-0 and took the division.

Etc., etc...





o


For the Colts, they had 2 examples that were bad, and one was just horrific.

1) ) The 1967 Colts were undefeated going into the final game of the season ...... UNDEFEATED !!! They lost the final game of the regular season, and DID NOT make the post-season because Pete Rozelle's set-up was absurd. There were 16 teams in the NFL, and instead of dividing them into 2 divisions with 2 Wildcards, Rozelle had 4 divisions with no Wildcard. So the Colts ...... with a record of 11-1-2 ...... did not qualify for the playoffs because they were in the same division as the Rams (who also had a record of 11-1-2, but won the tiebreaker.) So the team that was tied for the best record in the entire NFL was sitting home for the post-season that year.


https://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/1967-bal



2) ) The 2008 Colts were also royally screwed. They had a record of 12-4 AND they also beat the Chargers on their homefield in San Diego ...... but because the 8-8 Chargers won their division, their playoff game was held in San Diego.

https://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/2008-ind



I believe that they ought to make a clause in regard to division winners getting to play on their homefield with a significantly worse record than their opponent. They should make it so that you have to be at least within 2 full games of the team that you are playing in order to maintain the homefield advantage ...... so a team that won their division with a record of 10-7 would still be able to host a playoff game against a Wildcard team that had a record of 12-5. BUT, if a team won their division with a record of 9-8 (or 9-7-1) was playing a Wildcard team that finished with a record of 12-5, then the Wildcard team would then host the playoff game.

o

[IndyNorm]

o


For the Colts, they had 2 examples that were bad, and one was just horrific.

1) ) The 1967 Colts were undefeated going into the final game of the season ...... UNDEFEATED !!! They lost the final game of the regular season, and DID NOT make the post-season because Pete Rozelle's set-up was absurd. There were 16 teams in the NFL, and instead of dividing them into 2 divisions with 2 Wildcards, Rozelle had 4 divisions with no Wildcard. So the Colts ...... with a record of 11-1-2 ...... did not qualify for the playoffs because they were in the same division as the Rams (who also had a record of 11-1-2), but lost the tiebreaker. So the team that was tied for the best record in the entire NFL was sitting home for the post-season that year.


https://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/1967-bal



2) ) The 2008 Colts were also royally screwed. They had a record of 12-4 AND they also beat the Chargers on their homefield in San Diego ...... but because the 8-8 Chargers won their division, their playoff game was held in Sa Diego.

https://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/results.nsf/Teams/2008-ind



I believe that they ought to make a clause in regard to division winners getting to play on their homefield with a significantly worse record than their opponent. They should make it so that you have to be at least within 2 full games of the team that you are playing in order to maintain the homefield advantage ...... so a team that won their division with a record of 10-7 would still be able to host a playoff game against a Wildcard team that had a record of 12-5. BUT, if a team won their division with a record of 9-8 (or 9-7-1) was playing a Wildcard team that finished with a record of 12-5, then the Wildcard team would then host the playoff game.

o

As bad as it was for the Colts in '08 and Saint's in '10 that first case you describe was highway robbery!! Totally ridiculous.

I like your idea, but I'd like to see the league take it a step further and seed the playoffs by record w/ division winner being the 1st tie breaker (or better yet 2nd tie breaker after head to head).

[ChaosTheory]

I believe that they ought to make a clause in regard to division winners getting to play on their homefield with a significantly worse record than their opponent. They should make it so that you have to be at least within 2 full games of the team that you are playing in order to maintain the homefield advantage ...... so a team that won their division with a record of 10-7 would still be able to host a playoff game against a Wildcard team that had a record of 12-5. BUT, if a team won their division with a record of 9-8 (or 9-7-1) was playing a Wildcard team that finished with a record of 12-5, then the Wildcard team would then host the playoff game.

I agree with the sentiment, but I'd rather keep the arbitrarity out of it. It gets messy. Like how overtime now gives both team a possession unless you score a TD. And people say, "Well, why don't they both get a possession regardless?" And next it'll be, "Well, why don't they both get two possessions?" and so on.


I like your idea, but I'd like to see the league take it a step further and seed the playoffs by record w/ division winner being the 1st tie breaker (or better yet 2nd tie breaker after head to head).

Normally I'd say to leave the qualification seeding as they've always been (4 division champs + 3 WC)... and once you've got your field, simply seed them according to record. Keeps the division really meaningful. Division winner could also be part of the tie-breaker.

But yours is an interesting take. It doesn't make being a division winner meaningless due to tie-breakers... But I suppose the issue would be that theoretically a division winner could miss the playoffs outright. The '08 Chargers and the '10 Seahawks we mentioned both would've missed the playoffs even with under the current 7-team field. And maybe that's what they deserved.

It becomes a matter of meritocracy vs. marketing, and marketing would never omit an entire division's audience from the playoffs.

[IndyNorm]

Normally I'd say to leave the qualification seeding as they've always been (4 division champs + 3 WC)... and once you've got your field, simply seed them according to record. Keeps the division really meaningful. Division winner could also be part of the tie-breaker.

But yours is an interesting take. It doesn't make being a division winner meaningless due to tie-breakers... But I suppose the issue would be that theoretically a division winner could miss the playoffs outright. The '08 Chargers and the '10 Seahawks we mentioned both would've missed the playoffs even with under the current 7-team field. And maybe that's what they deserved.

It becomes a matter of meritocracy vs. marketing, and marketing would never omit an entire division's audience from the playoffs.

I agree with you, and I didn't fully describe it well enough b/c I would keep each of the division winners making the playoffs along w/ the top 3 other teams then seed by record w/ division winner being the #1 or #2 tie breaker. So if a division winner has 10 wins and the 3 WC winners have 12, 11, and 10 wins then division winner would be seeded higher than the #3 WC but below the other 2 WC teams.

Ultimately the best and fairest product would be to have the teams with the top 7 records make the playoffs, but as you pointed out that will never happen.

[ChoppedWood]

It seems like you’re blaming Reich for Ballard’s failure to sign a competent backup QB. Like it or not, the fact is that Reich was stuck with starting Wentz. The Colts were in the hunt for a playoff spot, and plan B was Ehlinger.

Well there is that, and I agree Ballard has a lot of culpability in Wentz / team failing to make the playoffs.

But that's not what I am pointing to. We are just a bunch of fans, and of course we are going to rant about all his failures to get rid of the ball- but we didn't / don't have access to coaching film etc... so our view / understanding of calls, of routes, of play design, leaves out a critical part of the analysis that tells whether it was really Wentz sucking that bad or if there was such a void of playmakers that he was hamstrung and it made him look worse than he was.

But NOW the postmortem is complete- there has been plenty of study of what he was doing by real football analysts - AND IT IS UNIMAGINABLY EVEN WORSE than what all of us were saying.

I went ballistic after the game where we threw it 26 straight times and Reich talked about how he didn't realize it and that "usually" someone on his staff will say something to him but nobody did. Forget the incredulous stupidity of that statement, forget his smuggy comment about how we must have been doing something right because of the yards we amassed, it's way deeper than that.

I fully get we had no suitable replacement so replacing him was very difficult and largely not possible. That said, we did have a guy in charge who had the reins to DEMAND he stop, to DEMAND he quit checking out of the plays called, to DEMAND in film review that Wentz throw the damn ball to where the play was called for it to go, to simply take the level of RPO's available to him way down. Was it Nelson that was caught on camera at one point saying to Reich- "can't we just run the fucking play called"?

That's my point in that post. It was Frank's job to stand on him and make him quit doing the shit he was doing, but he didn't, he let it continue all the way to the end when Wentz was performing so badly it cost us a playoff spot. That is 100% on Frank, not Ballard. The Wentz gamble didn't work, and it's very likely to fail in DC as well. I don't blame Frank and Ballard for trying though- they were left with few options. I don't blame them for Wentz just not being very good, they don't control his talent. I DO HOWEVER squarely place the blame for him being renegade hero boy week after week after week entirely on Frank. Good / great coaches adjust, he didn't seem to adjust, he seemed to accept. I believe he didn't adjust because he was too personally invested in proving Wentz was the guy, that if Wentz did magical things his pushing to have him as our QB, would be justified. That's why I dislike him so much, to me he comes across as wanting to prove he is the smart guy and his decisions are why we win vs letting his team turn him into a winner.