Has Kenny Moore Played His Last Game as a Colt?

[Chaka]

I sure hope not, but we all know that these situations can become dicey:

https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/status/1529506396223557634

I would say that it have been better for him to address this internally, but apparently he did raise the issue quietly before going public:

https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/status/1529527372264898561

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

FWIW - the other Star reporter indicated that Kenny Moore II was in attendance - he just decided to skip the workouts.

https://twitter.com/NateAtkins_/status/1529508203750428672

Kenny Moore II and Darius Leonard aren’t practicing today, and Stephon Gilmore wandered out late.

Moore II is here in sweats, as he’s looking for a new deal, as Joel Erickson pointed out.

[JAFF]

What will the colts do! This is the worst, dogs and cats living together, MASS HYSTERIA!

[ChaosTheory]

Apparently he's present, but working individually only. It's been a while since I remember a player sitting out due to his contract. Am I missing someone recent? It's only OTA's and they just started at that. But I'd hate to see this drag into training camp and preseason. Always hoping for a smooth, full-participation offseason.

I can understand his perspective a bit. He's currently the 27th highest paid corner (per year) and feels he's much better than the 27th best corner. And it probably doesn't help that #20 on that list was just brought to your team from another team.

Reminds me of some Bill Polian wisdom...

“Never sign a big-name player from somebody else’s team who makes more money than a bellwether on your team. You’re asking for real trouble in the locker room by doing that.”


All that said... he signed the contract. At the time, he was the highest paid slot corner in the league. He's still got two years left on it, so if they don't want to extend him now, I don't think he has a leg to stand on. Which sucks for the team because he's important.

[Spike]

Apparently he's present, but working individually only. It's been a while since I remember a player sitting out due to his contract. Am I missing someone recent? It's only OTA's and they just started at that. But I'd hate to see this drag into training camp and preseason. Always hoping for a smooth, full-participation offseason.

I can understand his perspective a bit. He's currently the 27th highest paid corner (per year) and feels he's much better than the 27th best corner. And it probably doesn't help that #20 on that list was just brought to your team from another team.

Reminds me of some Bill Polian wisdom...

Never sign a big-name player from somebody else’s team who makes more money than a bellwether on your team. You’re asking for real trouble in the locker room by doing that.

All that said... he signed the contract. At the time, he was the highest paid slot corner in the league. He's still got two years left on it, so if they don't want to extend him now, I don't think he has a leg to stand on. Which sucks for the team because he's important.

That's the thing I can't stand. You signed a damn contract you were happy with, live with it. If he sucked, could the team ask him to take a pay cut? Hell no.

[ChaosTheory]

[/B]If he sucked, could the team ask him to take a pay cut? Hell no.

Well, they could've cut him before he set another foot on the field. He'd keep $9m without ever contributing again and that's part of the deal he signed.

Of course that's probably another sore spot because the guaranteed money in the NFL is picking up recently. Some of these CB's are getting $20m, $30m, $40m fully guaranteed. That's before the $15m-$20m per year. You can definitely see the appeal of pushing for a new deal.

[apballin]

Trying to send a message I guess something tells me he’ll be out there when it’s mandatory

[Lov2fish]

Honor the contract you signed. When it is up in two years, set your price. Would hate to see him go, but honor what you said you would play for.

[Hoopsdoc]

I guess now would be a good time to discuss how the Jags absolutely roasted him in the season finale.

[Brylok]

It will be interesting to see what happens with this.

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

If he sucked, could the team ask him to take a pay cut? Hell no.

I agree that the Colts haven't asked players to take pay cuts as often as Belicheat has used that maneuver in New England.

However, the Colts have made that type of request a few times over the years.

For instance, the Colts asked Marvin Harrison to take a pay cut after he put up two unproductive seasons (one of them injury-shortened) at the end of his career.

Polian didn't want a huge cap hit for an unproductive WR and wanted to renegotiate the deal.

Marvin wasn't interested in a pay cut, however.

So, in the end, the Colts released Harrison instead.

[rm1369]

Honor the contract you signed. When it is up in two years, set your price. Would hate to see him go, but honor what you said you would play for.

I’m not sure where he hasn’t. Participation in voluntary workouts isn’t violating his contract. I’d say he’s doing what the team is doing - the minimum he agreed to, except him even being there is above the minimum. We’ll see if he actually holds out - then you have something to complain about. But even then it being a business is a two way street. Teams cut players when they under perform their contract, why shouldn’t players be able to use what little leverage they have to maximize their pay when they out perform it?

[rcubed]

I’m not sure where he hasn’t. Participation in voluntary workouts isn’t violating his contract.

Its not about OTAs - voluntary or not. the point in "honoring your contract" is that you agreed to terms and now you want to change those terms because you want more. with the teams having the ability to "get out" of their part by cutting a player at any time, players and agents need to get guaranteed money set in the contract.

[rm1369]

Its not about OTAs - voluntary or not. the point in "honoring your contract" is that you agreed to terms and now you want to change those terms because you want more. with the teams having the ability to "get out" of their part by cutting a player at any time, players and agents need to get guaranteed money set in the contract.

Teams ask to renegotiate contracts as well. Do you complain that they aren’t living up to their contracts? Asking to renegotiate is not abnormal when it is unbalanced - in either direction. It is also not the same as “not honoring your contract.”

[JAFF]

Teams ask to renegotiate contracts as well. Do you complain that they aren’t living up to their contracts? Asking to renegotiate is not abnormal when it is unbalanced - in either direction. It is also not the same as “not honoring your contract.”

Players like the longer contracts, more security. A short term would pay more per year, but with less security.

I have a problem when they get the long term and then learn the price of security.

[Oldcolt]

The NFL is a competitive capitalist world that pits billionaires against millionaires. I can see both sides but really just root for the Colts. So from that I hope things work out so there are not repercussions down the line. Not worried about losing Moore, everybody gets replaced eventually. Moore is an important cog, but not an irreplaceable one. Don’t want this to fester.

[rcubed]

Teams ask to renegotiate contracts as well. Do you complain that they aren’t living up to their contracts? Asking to renegotiate is not abnormal when it is unbalanced - in either direction. It is also not the same as “not honoring your contract.”
usually that's just moving money around for cap purposes.

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

usually that's just moving money around for cap purposes.

Yes, when teams restructure contracts, it usually involves "cap math" where they are converting base salary into a bonus and prorating that bonus over future (sometimes voidable) years. In many cases, the player gets the money faster because they will usually get the bonus money upon agreeing to the restructure.

However, teams can also ask players to take a pay cut. Marvin Harrison was one example for the Colts, there are others as well.

[Chaka]

Yes, when teams restructure contracts, it usually involves "cap math" where they are converting base salary into a bonus and prorating that bonus over future (sometimes voidable) years. In many cases, the player gets the money faster because they will usually get the bonus money upon agreeing to the restructure.

However, teams can also ask players to take a pay cut. Marvin Harrison was one example for the Colts, there are others as well.

This is exactly correct.

It's the kind of stuff that leads many people to conclude, wrongly, that the salary cap is "funny money" or meaningless. But the reality is that when you look closely at what's being done in these transactions, the piper must always be paid and there will be repercussions for the teams in later years.

[Chaka]

Teams ask to renegotiate contracts as well. Do you complain that they aren’t living up to their contracts? Asking to renegotiate is not abnormal when it is unbalanced - in either direction. It is also not the same as “not honoring your contract.”

I don't really agree with this in a purely technical sense. I assume you're referring to instances where the team wants a player to take a paycut, rather than a renegotiation as a pure salary cap move, right?

I'll say at the outset that none of us have seen the actual contracts, so it's not possible to say with certainty what each side is allowed to do. However, in most cases, a team can ask a player to take a pay cut because the contract has given the team that leverage. If the player is entering into a non-guaranteed year, the team is free to ask for a reduction, and the player is free to decline. However, the player knows that he risks getting cut and receiving nothing, so he'll probably work with the team.

Conversely, the shoe is on the other foot in some contracts, most notably the recent Deshaun Watson contract. That one, I understand, is a fully guaranteed, $230M contract. The team has no leverage whatsoever, so long as Watson lives up to whatever additional terms (morality clauses, etc.) might exist in the contract. Now, the Browns could always ASK him to take less at some point, sure, but he'll just give them the finger. The Browns could not realistically cut him and would save nothing by doing so.

So it comes down to the contract. While lots of people say "I prefer millionaires to billionaires" and thus reflexively side with the players, the truth is that both sides are exceedingly well represented in their contractual negotiations, so it's not like the owners can usually "put one over" on the player (unless the player goes without representation, which some decide to do for unknown reasons).

[rm1369]

I don't really agree with this in a purely technical sense. I assume you're referring to instances where the team wants a player to take a paycut, rather than a renegotiation as a pure salary cap move, right?

I'll say at the outset that none of us have seen the actual contracts, so it's not possible to say with certainty what each side is allowed to do. However, in most cases, a team can ask a player to take a pay cut because the contract has given the team that leverage. If the player is entering into a non-guaranteed year, the team is free to ask for a reduction, and the player is free to decline. However, the player knows that he risks getting cut and receiving nothing, so he'll probably work with the team.

Conversely, the shoe is on the other foot in some contracts, most notably the recent Deshaun Watson contract. That one, I understand, is a fully guaranteed, $230M contract. The team has no leverage whatsoever, so long as Watson lives up to whatever additional terms (morality clauses, etc.) might exist in the contract. Now, the Browns could always ASK him to take less at some point, sure, but he'll just give them the finger. The Browns could not realistically cut him and would save nothing by doing so.

So it comes down to the contract. While lots of people say "I prefer millionaires to billionaires" and thus reflexively side with the players, the truth is that both sides are exceedingly well represented in their contractual negotiations, so it's not like the owners can usually "put one over" on the player (unless the player goes without representation, which some decide to do for unknown reasons).

Players and teams are (almost) always free to ask the other side to make a change. Yes, who has the leverage varies by scenario, but asking is not a violation of any contract I have ever heard of in the NFL. And that was part of my point to those criticizing Moore for not “honoring his contract”. Nothing Moore has done to date has violated his contract. He is skipping voluntary workouts and letting the team know he is unhappy. That is not a violation of his contract.

As far as players taking less to stay with a team it isn’t uncommon. Off the top of my head I can name two players who did it last off-season- Funchess in GB and the Bills center. Did the Bills or GB not honor their contracts by asking those players to renegotiate? Of course not. That’s my point - guys here complaining don’t complain when a team uses their leverage (the threat of a cut) to push players to take less, yet they are quick to criticize a player outplaying his contract for using his leverage (threat of a holdout, which Moore has not even done yet to my knowledge) to push a team to pay more.

[Mr. Session]

Interesting strategy considering how he ended last year. Renfro took his fucking lunch money.

I guess he figures his leverage is likely strongest now. I like Moore, but I’m not really sure how much.

[Hoopsdoc]

I used to get irritated but I don’t fault guys like Moore for trying to maximize his earnings. Not anymore.

Football is an absolutely brutal sport and the teams will very rarely show any loyalty at all to a non quarterback.

Get as much as you can, I say. Not a single person posting here would do any differently.

[Lov2fish]

I used to get irritated but I don’t fault guys like Moore for trying to maximize his earnings. Not anymore.

Football is an absolutely brutal sport and the teams will very rarely show any loyalty at all to a non quarterback.

Get as much as you can, I say. Not a single person posting here would do any differently.

I would do it differently. Call me old fashion, but my word means more to me than money. I get the, make all you can, but integrity is a real thing.

[apballin]

We all know this is because Gilmore walked in the door making more money, but he’s a vet super champ and defensive player of the year. That’s what I’d be telling Kenny if I’m Ballard right now

[Chaka]

Players and teams are (almost) always free to ask the other side to make a change. Yes, who has the leverage varies by scenario, but asking is not a violation of any contract I have ever heard of in the NFL. And that was part of my point to those criticizing Moore for not “honoring his contract”. Nothing Moore has done to date has violated his contract. He is skipping voluntary workouts and letting the team know he is unhappy. That is not a violation of his contract.

As far as players taking less to stay with a team it isn’t uncommon. Off the top of my head I can name two players who did it last off-season- Funchess in GB and the Bills center. Did the Bills or GB not honor their contracts by asking those players to renegotiate? Of course not. That’s my point - guys here complaining don’t complain when a team uses their leverage (the threat of a cut) to push players to take less, yet they are quick to criticize a player outplaying his contract for using his leverage (threat of a holdout, which Moore has not even done yet to my knowledge) to push a team to pay more.

I guess the distinction is that Moore’s threat in your scenario is to breach his contract, which he has no legal right to do. The team’s threat is exercise a contractual right which isn’t favorable to the player. If the team tried to bully the player into modifying his contract by threatening to withhold money legally guaranteed under the contract, that would be comparable.

I tend to believe that these days, each side goes into these contracts with both eyes open. While I certainly understand and sympathize with Moore’s disappointment over the increases in CB salaries since he signed his agreement, I find it hard to support or endorse any threat to hold out. He is threatening to deny the Colts the benefit of their bargain with him. They rolled the dice and had a favorable outcome. When they signed Funchess a few years ago, that gamble didn’t work out as well, but as far as I know the Colts paid him anyway. Absent some evidence Moore was tricked or unfairly taken advantage of, it’s just bad faith in my view. Yes, it’s leverage because he’s a popular player and the Colts don’t want to lose him, but its unfair leverage in my opinion, and from a strict contractual perspective it’s plainly wrong.

That said, you are correct that he’s done nothing so far other than ask for an increase, and it’s possible that the Colts could elect to grant him his wish (likely with other contractual terms attached, such as an extension, options, etc.) or that he backs down. However, he is signaling a potential future hold out, and the Colts apparently weren’t willing to do anything when he approached them privately, so the fact that this has escalated into the public domain is not a very good sign. It also puts the Colts in a difficult position now that this is public, since if they give in to his demands then it might be seen to encourage other players to do the same. Sometimes the solution is to trade him to someone who is willing to rework the deal.

[CanuckColt]

Interesting strategy considering how he ended last year. Renfro took his fucking lunch money.

I guess he figures his leverage is likely strongest now. I like Moore, but I’m not really sure how much.

Yeah, he is good but not elite.
Time to train the next slot CB.

[ChaosTheory]

Good Post

I wanted to respond earlier, but you've said pretty much all I wanted to with your last few posts. Particularly about how the player-team relationship isn't exactly a two-way street because both parties have different responsibilities (service vs. investment).

RM is right to point out that Moore hasn't done anything yet that violates his contract.

Of course I think you're right to also point out the likelihood of a continued hold-out through mandatory events. Making it public is the first step.

[Mr. Session]

Sometimes the solution is to trade him to someone who is willing to rework the deal.

My initial gut feeling is this is the appropriate response. Are there any other teams that have a young CB Indianapolis can plug in the slot? Maybe this is a chance to get younger/cheaper at the position and steal a draft pick or something.

I kind of wish they would have traded him to the raiders instead, now. I get and understand why players leverage when they do but with how this team closed out last year I find this unpalatable.

He can go somewhere else and worry about his pro bowls and getting paid for not winning games or going to the Playoffs.

[IndyNorm]

Guess I don't blame him, but seems a year early since he has 2 years left on his contract. Also, doesn't help his cause that, as others have pointed out, he sucked down the stretch when the team was shitting the bed.

[Oldcolt]

Trying to get more from the team is done all the time. On my list of things that are immoral renegotiating a contract in the NFL runs just behind speeding. It may be technically breaking the law but if I take into account how the owners treat players (I'm looking at how fucked up their response has been to CTE with John Mackey as the poster boy for the Colts-THAT is immoral) I really could care less. Owners have all the money and power and take total advantage of it all the time. Having said all of that, if Kenny pushes it I am with the group that would trade him (but for draft picks) and wish him well. He ain't irreplaceable by any means.

[Colts And Orioles]

Trying to get more from the team is done all the time. On my list of things that are immoral renegotiating a contract in the NFL runs just behind speeding. It may be technically breaking the law but if I take into account how the owners treat players (I'm looking at how fucked up their response has been to CTE with John Mackey as the poster boy for the Colts-THAT is immoral) I really could care less. Owners have all the money and power and take total advantage of it all the time. Having said all of that, if Kenny pushes it I am with the group that would trade him (but for draft picks) and wish him well. He ain't irreplaceable by any means.





o


Russ Francis actually quit playing for one full year, partly because he was so disgusted at how the NFL treated his paralyzed best friend, Darryl Stingley ...... he was talked out of retirement by Bill Walsh when Francis was in Hawaii, working for ABC Sports at the Pro Bowl.




https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1387717305i/654595.jpg

o

[apballin]

Trying to get more from the team is done all the time. On my list of things that are immoral renegotiating a contract in the NFL runs just behind speeding. It may be technically breaking the law but if I take into account how the owners treat players (I'm looking at how fucked up their response has been to CTE with John Mackey as the poster boy for the Colts-THAT is immoral) I really could care less. Owners have all the money and power and take total advantage of it all the time. Having said all of that, if Kenny pushes it I am with the group that would trade him (but for draft picks) and wish him well. He ain't irreplaceable by any means.

Exactly , Jonathan Taylor showed up Kenny!!! Talk about under paid!!!

Made 1.7 while his backup made 6 mil and he’s still showing up

[Chaka]

Holder mentioned a couple things in an article I read this morning which were interesting. First, apparently Moore changed agents just recently.

Second, Holder mentioned that Moore’s current extension was signed in 2019, after his second year in the league. That’s interesting because it means that even without the contract, the Colts would more or less have had control of Moore for two additional years before he’d become an unrestricted free agent. So they likely overpaid Moore for those first two years to compensate for the length of the contract (according to Spotrac, he got the biggest chunk of cash in the first year), and so far Moore’s only lost one free agent year under the deal. So to the Colts, the most valuable part of the deal are the next two (2022 and 2023) and these are the ones Moore wants to negate. I'd imagine that will anger the Colts.

According to Holder, at present the Colts are not interested in negotiating, and believe his deal was fair. So the pieces seem to be in moving into place for a showdown.

[apballin]

Holder mentioned a couple things in an article I read this morning which were interesting. First, apparently Moore changed agents just recently.

Second, Holder mentioned that Moore’s current extension was signed in 2019, after his second year in the league. That’s interesting because it means that even without the contract, the Colts would more or less have had control of Moore for two additional years before he’d become an unrestricted free agent. So they likely overpaid Moore for those first two years to compensate for the length of the contract (according to Spotrac, he got the biggest chunk of cash in the first year), and so far Moore’s only lost one free agent year under the deal. So to the Colts, the most valuable part of the deal are the next two (2022 and 2023) and these are the ones Moore wants to negate. I'd imagine that will anger the Colts.

According to Holder, at present the Colts are not interested in negotiating, and believe his deal was fair. So the pieces seem to be in moving into place for a showdown.

He took the guaranteed early money he could’ve gambled on himself and turned it down. Something has swollen this dudes head, new agent or whatever but this isn’t a good move Kenny in my opinion you have zero bargain chips here. You played like shit the last 3 games and you were overpaid earlier in your deal when the colts didn’t have to give you shit. Not to mention you may not even matter to Gus Bradley to quote fast and furious here “shitty call O Conner”

[Racehorse]

Holder mentioned a couple things in an article I read this morning which were interesting. First, apparently Moore changed agents just recently.

Second, Holder mentioned that Moore’s current extension was signed in 2019, after his second year in the league. That’s interesting because it means that even without the contract, the Colts would more or less have had control of Moore for two additional years before he’d become an unrestricted free agent. So they likely overpaid Moore for those first two years to compensate for the length of the contract (according to Spotrac, he got the biggest chunk of cash in the first year), and so far Moore’s only lost one free agent year under the deal. So to the Colts, the most valuable part of the deal are the next two (2022 and 2023) and these are the ones Moore wants to negate. I'd imagine that will anger the Colts.

According to Holder, at present the Colts are not interested in negotiating, and believe his deal was fair. So the pieces seem to be in moving into place for a showdown.Not sure how agents get paid, but it seems the new agent isn’t getting as big of a slice as he would like and is talking him into this move. Agents, like any other lawyer, are the scum of the earth. They later become the worst of the worst by going into politics. Total scumbags.

[Oldcolt]

He took the guaranteed early money he could’ve gambled on himself and turned it down. Something has swollen this dudes head, new agent or whatever but this isn’t a good move Kenny in my opinion you have zero bargain chips here. You played like shit the last 3 games and you were overpaid earlier in your deal when the colts didn’t have to give you shit. Not to mention you may not even matter to Gus Bradley to quote fast and furious here “shitty call O Conner”

To be fair Moore got a 33 million dollar contract of which 9 million was guaranteed. The Colts protected themselves, if he had gotten hurt badly they would have cut him and saved themselves 24 million (cost Kenny 24 million). It is the way they play the game in the NFL, there are no 'good' guys here, it is all just about money. If the players had never fought back they would still have zero free agency and be making a fraction of what they make AND the fucking owners would be pocketing the money. Having said all of that I agree that Kenny has very little bargaining chips here. It is a year to early to be asking for this. He has to know that.

[ChaosTheory]

Exactly , Jonathan Taylor showed up Kenny!!! Talk about under paid!!!

Made 1.7 while his backup made 6 mil and he’s still showing up

The thought of having a Le'Veon Bell type situation on the Colts grosses me out. I hope none of our guys turns out to be like him.

[apballin]

Last thing I’m gonna say, undrafted from a small school he was given an opportunity when there were plenty of guys drafted on our team ahead of him

Colts gave him a hell of an opportunity mainly Pagano, he’s definitely earned his spot but he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in without the Colts they not only gave him a chance they’ve promoted and pushed his story

And now this… I don’t like it at all hopefully it ends up being nothing

[rm1369]

Last thing I’m gonna say, undrafted from a small school he was given an opportunity when there were plenty of guys drafted on our team ahead of him

Colts gave him a hell of an opportunity mainly Pagano, he’s definitely earned his spot but he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in without the Colts they not only gave him a chance they’ve promoted and pushed his story

And now this… I don’t like it at all hopefully it ends up being nothing

They also would have cut him in a heartbeat if he hadn’t performed. I don’t begrudge players trying to get their money when they can. I think most fans lose sight of reality because of the amount of money involved. If Moore was an underpaid IT professional people would think differently about him pushing his employer for more money. Yeah there are obvious differences, but let’s not forget that among those differences is the fact Moore is literally one play away from being out of his profession for the rest of his life. He also has an extremely small window to earn. And the league doesn’t exactly have a great track record with taking care of players once they are used up.

My guess is Moore doesn’t hold out and plays this year, then is traded in the off season. I personally don’t think that makes Moore a bad person. I wish it wasn’t the case, he’s a better player than you’d assume from this thread. Either way, Moore will do what’s in his best interest and the team will do what’s in theirs. I’m guessing that’s trading him.

[ChaosTheory]

They also would have cut him in a heartbeat if he hadn’t performed...

...If Moore was an underpaid IT professional people would think differently about him pushing his employer for more money.

-I think the fact that he's under contract is the issue for people, not the money. I'm sure most fans can empathize with him seeing the explosion of money around the league and wanting in on it. Of course we all want more. That's not really the point, though.

-So that aside... Cutting him for not performing is also part of the agreed upon contract. Almost like they're paying for a standard of service and if that standard is not met, the relationship can be terminated.

-There's also a gamble from both parties in the form of guaranteed money. Both parties were comfortable enough that if Kenny Moore got into a car accident and never played a down, he would be still be paid $9m. And there are more guarantees along the way.

-The difference with the IT guy is that he's probably not under contract which drastically changes the employer/employee relationship. So he can push for more money because if he's unsatisfied, he can go to the competitor and get a job with them at any time. But if he's under contract, that employer can tell him to get fucked.

I love the dude being on the Colts and I think he's very important. Also, to keep it in perspective, he still hasn't done anything that violates his contract. He may just show up for work, continue to perform, and maybe the good will pays off for both sides. So far, this is just a discussion about the principle of an issue.

[apballin]

They also would have cut him in a heartbeat if he hadn’t performed. I don’t begrudge players trying to get their money when they can. I think most fans lose sight of reality because of the amount of money involved. If Moore was an underpaid IT professional people would think differently about him pushing his employer for more money. Yeah there are obvious differences, but let’s not forget that among those differences is the fact Moore is literally one play away from being out of his profession for the rest of his life. He also has an extremely small window to earn. And the league doesn’t exactly have a great track record with taking care of players once they are used up.

My guess is Moore doesn’t hold out and plays this year, then is traded in the off season. I personally don’t think that makes Moore a bad person. I wish it wasn’t the case, he’s a better player than you’d assume from this thread. Either way, Moore will do what’s in his best interest and the team will do what’s in theirs. I’m guessing that’s trading him.

Bullshit an undrafted unknown guy should be grateful and he made the pro bowl big fuckin deal

Reality is you play thru your contract keep producing and you’ll be vastly rewarded. I think the one that’s lost sight in this situation is Moore guys can’t have a good year and then cry for more money especially a replaceable guy that isn’t even one of the top 5 players on the team

Once again….. you wanna talk about underpaid… Taylor carried this fuckin team last year glad he doesn’t have Kenny’s agent

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

Exactly , Jonathan Taylor showed up Kenny!!! Talk about under paid!!!

Made 1.7 while his backup made 6 mil and he’s still showing up


You are comparing apples to oranges.


Per the latest CBA, Jonathan Taylor and his agent cannot negotiate a new contract extension until Taylor finishes his third season in the NFL.

That is the reason why Taylor and his agent aren't asking for more money this off season.


https://www.nfl.com/news/2022-nfl-free-agency-glossary-all-the-terms-you-need-to-know

Renegotiations: Rookie contracts for drafted players can't be renegotiated or altered in any way until after the last regular-season game of the third contracted year. Undrafted rookies must wait until after their second season to amend a contract. When the timing allows, any rookie contract that is renegotiated or extended in any way is no longer considered a rookie contract and is not restricted by the rules governing such contracts.

[apballin]

You are comparing apples to oranges.


Per the latest CBA, Jonathan Taylor and his agent cannot negotiate a new contract extension until Taylor finishes his third season in the NFL.

That is the reason why Taylor and his agent aren't asking for more money this off season.


https://www.nfl.com/news/2022-nfl-free-agency-glossary-all-the-terms-you-need-to-know

Yea I didn’t know this still doesn’t change my stance Kenny Moore has gotten a swollen head and getting shitty advice from a new agent if he knows what’s best he better have his money hungry ass in camp when shit gets real

[Chaka]

They also would have cut him in a heartbeat if he hadn’t performed. I don’t begrudge players trying to get their money when they can. I think most fans lose sight of reality because of the amount of money involved. If Moore was an underpaid IT professional people would think differently about him pushing his employer for more money. Yeah there are obvious differences, but let’s not forget that among those differences is the fact Moore is literally one play away from being out of his profession for the rest of his life. He also has an extremely small window to earn. And the league doesn’t exactly have a great track record with taking care of players once they are used up.

My guess is Moore doesn’t hold out and plays this year, then is traded in the off season. I personally don’t think that makes Moore a bad person. I wish it wasn’t the case, he’s a better player than you’d assume from this thread. Either way, Moore will do what’s in his best interest and the team will do what’s in theirs. I’m guessing that’s trading him.

I don’t think Moore is a bad person at all. In fact, he seems like a pretty good guy from everything I’ve seen. But I don’t subscribe to the theory that the player is always right.

The “small window to earn” argument isn’t convincing to me in this situation. He and the Colts already solved that issue when he received a $9 million guarantee when he signed long term after his second year. In exchange for that security, and tons more money if he played well, he pledged to remain with the Colts for five years. He could have refused to sign, bet on himself, and done a year-to-year deal. That was entirely up to him, and would have maximized his earnings, but also maximized his risk.

The fact that he’s played well, and the market for his services may have grown, is just not a valid excuse to ask for more money. The possibility that this might occur is exactly why the Colts were willing to commit so much money to a somewhat unproven, two-year player in 2019. If he isn't happy with this deal, then he should direct this to his former agent who helped him negotiate it.

The “underpaid IT professional” isn’t a very reasonable comparison, as others have pointed out and you even suggest in your comment. There’s no contract involved in that scenario, which is the crux of this after all.

[Oldcolt]

Moore has every right in the world to ASK for more money, to have his contract renegotiated. The Colts have every right to say no. I don't see how, in this scenario anyone has done anything that even approaches being wrong. And as far as I can see, that is the situation we are in right now. Voluntary means you do not have to show up, it means voluntary. If you hold it against the guy because he doesn't show up and do everything then it really isn't voluntary now is it? If that is true then the Colts are the liars, something I am sure we all think would be highly immoral.

I hate these slow times when this is what we have to talk about. It is better than anything the world has to offer right now anyway. I am thankful for football and this team.

[Bojack]

Moore has every right in the world to ASK for more money, to have his contract renegotiated. The Colts have every right to say no. I don't see how, in this scenario anyone has done anything that even approaches being wrong. And as far as I can see, that is the situation we are in right now. Voluntary means you do not have to show up, it means voluntary. If you hold it against the guy because he doesn't show up and do everything then it really isn't voluntary now is it? If that is true then the Colts are the liars, something I am sure we all think would be highly immoral.

I hate these slow times when this is what we have to talk about. It is better than anything the world has to offer right now anyway. I am thankful for football and this team.

Fair points pal. He is not required to show up for these no and the backlash he has gotten from certain areas of Colt fandom has been ridiculous. I don't think we are going to back down and give in, but Moore doesn't seem to be giving in either.

I just want the thing resolved as soon as possible so can everyone can have a clear head about it:Player, team, and fan alike.

[Butter]

Fair points pal. He is not required to show up for these no and the backlash he has gotten from certain areas of Colt fandom has been ridiculous. I don't think we are going to back down and give in, but Moore doesn't seem to be giving in either.

I just want the thing resolved as soon as possible so can everyone can have a clear head about it:Player, team, and fan alike.

He's not your Pal, guy.

[Bojack]

He's not your Pal, guy.

I'm not your guy,friend.

[apballin]

Moore has every right in the world to ASK for more money, to have his contract renegotiated. The Colts have every right to say no. I don't see how, in this scenario anyone has done anything that even approaches being wrong. And as far as I can see, that is the situation we are in right now. Voluntary means you do not have to show up, it means voluntary. If you hold it against the guy because he doesn't show up and do everything then it really isn't voluntary now is it? If that is true then the Colts are the liars, something I am sure we all think would be highly immoral.

I hate these slow times when this is what we have to talk about. It is better than anything the world has to offer right now anyway. I am thankful for football and this team.

You don’t wanna show up for voluntary work I’m fine with that… hell you wanna go to Ballard and Irsay and voice contract displeasure… fine with that

To let it be known thru the media is my issue with all this. This is the kinda bullshit that divides teams before the season even starts. He could’ve said anything he’s resting a sore hamstring… anything

See you in camp Kenny, don’t fuck this up

[JAFF]

Yea I didn’t know this still doesn’t change my stance Kenny Moore has gotten a swollen head and getting shitty advice from a new agent if he knows what’s best he better have his money hungry ass in camp when shit gets real

Players renegotiate often. Has he outplayed the contract? The two parties will figure it out

[JAFF]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/05/30/cardinals-jeff-gladney-dies-at-25/

Sad example why you should maximize your earning power while you can. No one is guaranteed to be around very long, I have been lucky to survive a close shave and a minor heart blockage.

[apballin]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/05/30/cardinals-jeff-gladney-dies-at-25/

Sad example why you should maximize your earning power while you can. No one is guaranteed to be around very long, I have been lucky to survive a close shave and a minor heart blockage.

He died in a car accident …. Tragic but hardly a health issue

I’d say Kenny Moore exceeded his expected earnings coming out of the powerhouse Valdosta standing at a whopping 5-8 180

[JAFF]

He died in a car accident …. Tragic but hardly a health issue

I’d say Kenny Moore exceeded his expected earnings coming out of the powerhouse Valdosta standing at a whopping 5-8 180

Its a time issue. No one knows when the end will come. You do what you can when you can.

[apballin]

Its a time issue. No one knows when the end will come. You do what you can when you can.

Again 6 mil on top of 6 mil he’s due to earn isn’t gonna make a big difference

There’s a difference between grateful and greedy athletes must toe that line and in my opinion Kenny is over stepping here

[JAFF]

Again 6 mil on top of 6 mil he’s due to earn isn’t gonna make a big difference

There’s a difference between grateful and greedy athletes must toe that line and in my opinion Kenny is over stepping here

Telling someone else how to manage their money is ridiculous.

[apballin]

Telling someone else how to manage their money is ridiculous.

I’m not telling him how to manage his money I like the guy and I’d like to see him remain a Colt and not fuck his career up

I’m pissed his causing a distraction which can fuck up the team, that’s the issue him making it about himself and now all the other players are watching and taking notes

[JAFF]

I’m not telling him how to manage his money I like the guy and I’d like to see him remain a Colt and not fuck his career up

I’m pissed his causing a distraction which can fuck up the team, that’s the issue him making it about himself and now all the other players are watching and taking notes


If this team is distracted by his contract issues, they have bigger problems

[Bojack]

If this team is distracted by his contract issues, they have bigger problems

Agreed. But really though I don't think Ballard, Irsay, and company are letting this get to them. They are hard headed and Moore I think will back down way before they will.

[apballin]

If this team is distracted by his contract issues, they have bigger problems

Money always trumps everything with players, they’re all watching this and how it’s handled will affect future contract issues

I don’t care how good a team is, this shits always a distraction

I can’t think of 1 situation where a holdout ended good other then Bob Sanders, but that was his rookie deal

[JAFF]

Money always trumps everything with players, they’re all watching this and how it’s handled will affect future contract issues

I don’t care how good a team is, this shits always a distraction

I can’t think of 1 situation where a holdout ended good other then Bob Sanders, but that was his rookie deal

Ah no Scott

[ChaosTheory]

Money always trumps everything with players, they’re all watching this and how it’s handled will affect future contract issues

I don’t care how good a team is, this shits always a distraction

I can’t think of 1 situation where a holdout ended good other then Bob Sanders, but that was his rookie deal

I didn't know or forgot Bob Sanders held out. The only one I could think of was Edgerrin James' rookie holdout. Key difference in those situations was they happened before signing a contract.

Distraction or not, I just don't want this dragging into training camp and preseason... Any time that the entire team should be spending learning how to play with one another and gelling.

[apballin]

I didn't know or forgot Bob Sanders held out. The only one I could think of was Edgerrin James' rookie holdout. Key difference in those situations was they happened before signing a contract.

Distraction or not, I just don't want this dragging into training camp and preseason... Any time that the entire team should be spending learning how to play with one another and gelling.

Bob was the last draft pick signed that season, didn’t matter much because he was hurt and he was a special dude that didn’t need practice, training camp , or much of anything but again that was when he was drafted

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

I would do it differently. Call me old fashion, but my word means more to me than money. I get the, make all you can, but integrity is a real thing.


I can’t think of 1 situation where a holdout ended good other then Bob Sanders, but that was his rookie deal


I think a lot of people forget some of the Colts players who have held out over the years.

I wouldn't say that players that hold out lack integrity - there are a lot of players that have held out.

If that is the determining factor, then:

Reggie Wayne lacks integrity.

Robert Mathis lacks integrity.

The reason why I bring up their names is because they held out at the same exact time.

They both had 2 years left on their (non-rookie) contract. Player salaries had gone up since they signed their deals so they were underpaid vs their peers. They both wanted to renegotiate their contract. Hmmm, that sounds familiar to the details in this thread.

Polian told them to go pound sand. OK, he said it a little more delicately than that but not much, because it was Polian after all. Polian hid behind the CBA negotiations a bit - he said he didn't want to sign any long term deals before knowing the details of the new CBA.

So Wayne and Mathis sat out of voluntary OTA's - this wasn't unusual for Wayne because he typically skipped OTA's anyway. Reggie preferred to work out on his own.

Next Wayne and Mathis sat out of mandatory minicamp.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/05/polian-wayne-mathis-not-getting-new-deals/


In the end, they both reported to training camp that year.

I don't think there was any hard feelings between the player and team - both Reggie and Robert signed a new deal with the Colts once their contract was finally finished.

[Colts And Orioles]

I think a lot of people forget some of the Colts players who have held out over the years.

I wouldn't say that players that hold out lack integrity - there are a lot of players that have held out.

If that is the determining factor, then:

Reggie Wayne lacks integrity.

Robert Mathis lacks integrity.

The reason why I bring up their names is because they held out at the same exact time.

They both had 2 years left on their (non-rookie) contract. Player salaries had gone up since they signed their deals so they were underpaid vs their peers. They both wanted to renegotiate their contract. Hmmm, that sounds familiar to the details in this thread.

Polian told them to go pound sand. OK, he said it a little more delicately than that but not much, because it was Polian after all. Polian hid behind the CBA negotiations a bit - he said he didn't want to sign any long term deals before knowing the details of the new CBA.

So Wayne and Mathis sat out of voluntary OTA's - this wasn't unusual for Wayne because he typically skipped OTA's anyway. Reggie preferred to work out on his own.

Next Wayne and Mathis sat out of mandatory minicamp.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/05/polian-wayne-mathis-not-getting-new-deals/


In the end, they both reported to training camp that year.

I don't think there was any hard feelings between the player and team - both Reggie and Robert signed a new deal with the Colts once their contract was finally finished.




o


And for us old-time Colts fans, our beloved Lydell Mitchell held out in 1978, which wound up forcing a trade to the Chargers.



Mitchell Extends Holdout With Colts at $500 a Day

(By Dave Brady)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1978/08/03/mitchell-extends-holdout-with-colts-at-500-a-day/b715e05c-7753-45e3-af21-bd58cc8f2d7a/



We were able to sustain Mitchell's loss because we acquired Joe Washington in that trade with the Chargers, but the loss of Bert Jones when he separated his shoulder in the final pre-season game of that 1978 season spelled doom for the team.

o

[Colts And Orioles]

I think a lot of people forget some of the Colts players who have held out over the years.

I wouldn't say that players that hold out lack integrity - there are a lot of players that have held out.

If that is the determining factor, then:

Reggie Wayne lacks integrity.

Robert Mathis lacks integrity.

The reason why I bring up their names is because they held out at the same exact time.

They both had 2 years left on their (non-rookie) contract. Player salaries had gone up since they signed their deals so they were underpaid vs their peers. They both wanted to renegotiate their contract. Hmmm, that sounds familiar to the details in this thread.

Polian told them to go pound sand. OK, he said it a little more delicately than that but not much, because it was Polian after all. Polian hid behind the CBA negotiations a bit - he said he didn't want to sign any long term deals before knowing the details of the new CBA.

So Wayne and Mathis sat out of voluntary OTA's - this wasn't unusual for Wayne because he typically skipped OTA's anyway. Reggie preferred to work out on his own.

Next Wayne and Mathis sat out of mandatory minicamp.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/05/polian-wayne-mathis-not-getting-new-deals/


In the end, they both reported to training camp that year.

I don't think there was any hard feelings between the player and team - both Reggie and Robert signed a new deal with the Colts once their contract was finally finished.




o


It's not the same because the players essentially had no rights way back then, but Mickey Mantle, Joe Dimaggio, Sandy Koufax, and Don Drysdale also had famous/infamous holdouts when they played.

The Yankees fined DiMaggio $100 per day when he held out (that was a lot of money back then, considering that the minimum salary for Major League players was $4,000 per year.)

The Yankees told Mantle to take a hike if he didn't like their salary offer.


The Dodgers used to play Koufax and Drysdale off of one another. They would tell Koufax, "Are you kidding me ??? We're only paying Drysdale $70,000. We can't pay you $100,000." Then they would tell Drysdale the same ....... "Are you kidding me ??? We're only paying Koufax $70,000. We can't pay you $100,000."

Eventually, Koufax and Drysdale became wise to the chicanery of the Dodgers' front office, and they held out TOGETHER prior to the 1966 season. Even though the players had no other recourse other than holding out (no free agency, no salary arbitration, and a reserve-clause that bound a player to a team for life) the Dodgers eventually caved ...... the mid-1960's Los Angeles Dodgers without Koufax and Drysdale would have been like an ice cream sundae without the ice cream.

o

[apballin]

I think a lot of people forget some of the Colts players who have held out over the years.

I wouldn't say that players that hold out lack integrity - there are a lot of players that have held out.

If that is the determining factor, then:

Reggie Wayne lacks integrity.

Robert Mathis lacks integrity.

The reason why I bring up their names is because they held out at the same exact time.

They both had 2 years left on their (non-rookie) contract. Player salaries had gone up since they signed their deals so they were underpaid vs their peers. They both wanted to renegotiate their contract. Hmmm, that sounds familiar to the details in this thread.

Polian told them to go pound sand. OK, he said it a little more delicately than that but not much, because it was Polian after all. Polian hid behind the CBA negotiations a bit - he said he didn't want to sign any long term deals before knowing the details of the new CBA.

So Wayne and Mathis sat out of voluntary OTA's - this wasn't unusual for Wayne because he typically skipped OTA's anyway. Reggie preferred to work out on his own.

Next Wayne and Mathis sat out of mandatory minicamp.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/05/polian-wayne-mathis-not-getting-new-deals/


In the end, they both reported to training camp that year.

I don't think there was any hard feelings between the player and team - both Reggie and Robert signed a new deal with the Colts once their contract was finally finished.

Except for the minor detail on their resumes………………


Superbowl Champions

Moore hasn’t won shit can’t even compare him to those legends, he’s more comparable to Dom Rhodes but all this will be irrelevant because he will be at camp he’s not that stupid

[CanuckColt]

Moore is making a lot of money for his position and skillset and he is trusting his agent to do the right thing, but agents are weasels and often get their clients messed up.

[Colts And Orioles]

Moore is making a lot of money for his position and skillset and he is trusting his agent to do the right thing, but agents are weasels, and often get their clients messed up.




o


Agents can indeed be weasels and cause trouble for the clients, but ultimately, the client is the agent's boss ...... if the client senses that the agent is being a dipshit, he has the right to fire him on the spot and make it clear to the media that the agent's position/stance is not his.

I'm not necessarily saying that Kenny Moore ought to fire his agent, I'm simply pointing out that the agent works for the client, not the other way around.

o

[JAFF]

o


Agents can indeed be weasels and cause trouble for the clients, but ultimately, the client is the agent's boss ...... if the client senses that the agent is being a dipshit, he has the right to fire him on the spot and make it clear to the media that the agent's position/stance is not his.

I'm not necessarily saying that Kenny Moore ought to fire his agent, I'm simply pointing out that the agent works for the client, not the other way around.

o

These players put their health on the line every time they take the field. If they have leverage to get a bigger pay day, GOOD FOR THEM!

I am 64 years old, I have a pension and SS to fall back on, with my investments to get to the end of my days. These are young men risking their health and lives in a brutal game, in their 20s.

I believe they should get all they can when they can. They owe the fans jack sh*t

[Colts And Orioles]

o


Agents can indeed be weasels and cause trouble for the clients, but ultimately, the client is the agent's boss ...... if the client senses that the agent is being a dipshit, he has the right to fire him on the spot and make it clear to the media that the agent's position/stance is not his.

I'm not necessarily saying that Kenny Moore ought to fire his agent, I'm simply pointing out that the agent works for the client, not the other way around.

o








These players put their health on the line every time they take the field. If they have leverage to get a bigger pay day, GOOD FOR THEM!

I am 64 years old, I have a pension and SS to fall back on, with my investments to get to the end of my days. These are young men risking their health and lives in a brutal game, in their 20s.

I believe they should get all they can when they can. They owe the fans jack sh*t.




o


I wasn't commenting on what the players deserve, or their efforts of maximizing their earnings.

I was pointing out that the agents work for the players, not the other way around.

o

[rcubed]

Cooper kupp was on DP show this morning and said kenny was one of the two DBs that gave him the most trouble last year.

[JAFF]

o


I wasn't commenting on what the players deserve, or their efforts of maximizing their earnings.

I was pointing out that the agents work for the players, not the other way around.

o

Yes. And if you or your organization want to be treated fairly, you should hire a professional, some one who understands how to negotiate.

[Colts And Orioles]

Yes. And if you or your organization want to be treated fairly, you should hire a professional, some one who understands how to negotiate.




o


When exactly did I say that they shouldn't ??? I said that a player is the agent's boss, and that he has the right to fire him if he doesn't feel that he is representing him in the manner that he wants. Moore's agent isn't the only agent on the planet. When Alex Rodriguez played for the Yankees, he wasn't happy with his agent (Scott Boras), and Rodriquez fired him and hired a new one.

o

[JAFF]

o


When exactly did I say that they shouldn't ??? I said that a player is the agent's boss, and that he has the right to fire him if he doesn't feel that he is representing him in the manner that he wants. Moore's agent isn't the only agent on the planet. When Alex Rodriguez played for the Yankees, he wasn't happy with his agent (Scott Boras), and Rodriquez fired him and hired a new one.

o

Apparently we agree

[omahacolt]

[/B]
That's the thing I can't stand. You signed a damn contract you were happy with, live with it. If he sucked, could the team ask him to take a pay cut? Hell no.

people outperform contracts. wanting a correction is not a dick move. and the colts don't have to do it.


and the team can cut him at all times. so teams don't always honor the contract so i don't see how you can blame him for looking out for himself

[omahacolt]

I would do it differently. Call me old fashion, but my word means more to me than money. I get the, make all you can, but integrity is a real thing.

this is a fucking absurd take. and i don't believe you or anyone that says that either.


the teams don't honor the contract if it doesn't favor them.

[apballin]

people outperform contracts. wanting a correction is not a dick move. and the colts don't have to do it.


and the team can cut him at all times. so teams don't always honor the contract so i don't see how you can blame him for looking out for himself

He didn’t have to sign the early offer either

I blame him for not gambling on himself and refusing the first offer

I don’t feel like he outplayed his contract last year and under Bradley he may not be as valuable

Last 4 games 25 tackles and 2 pass def, and got torched by Renfrow and Marvin Jones

[Spike]

people outperform contracts. wanting a correction is not a dick move. and the colts don't have to do it.


and the team can cut him at all times. so teams don't always honor the contract so i don't see how you can blame him for looking out for himself

Okay. Is there a stipulation in the contract that states if you outperform your contract we will give you more $$$$$'s? Moore looked pretty pedestrian down the stretch by the way. But overall, he is a damn good player.

The player can get cut, and the players know that. That's why they get guaranteed money. Hey, if you outperform your contract, when it ends and you are playing at an all-pro level, shit, then ask for the fucking moon.

I guess I am just old school, and a contract and your word mean a shitload to me. The way things are now days, I guess that is just taboo.

Having said all that, Moore is not doing anything wrong right now and he is well within his rights to ask for more money. And as you stated, the Colts can tell him to go get fucked (not your words, just paraphrasing)

I think all of us Colt fans just need to have patience and see where all of this goes. Hell, it may not even be an issue pretty soon. I love this board because no one here is a yes (pussy) man. We all have our opinions and stick by them no matter how wrong most of you are (LOL). My wife and daughter tell me I am wrong 95% of the time, so maybe I'm the one that's all fucked up. For the record my son is on my side, saying I am only wrong about 70% of the time. God bless sons.

[JAFF]

For the record my son is on my side, saying I am only wrong about 70% of the time. God bless sons.

Be honest, you are wrong 90% of the time.

Wait until you have grandson’s. You are always right. 110%. LOL

[Lov2fish]

this is a fucking absurd take. and i don't believe you or anyone that says that either.


the teams don't honor the contract if it doesn't favor them.

You don't have to believe me for it to be true dipshit.

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

Kenny is taking the team physical today per Rapoport:


https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1533797059333132290

Colts Pro Bowl CB Kenny Moore II, who has not been attending OTAs and wants a new contract in line with his play, is in the building today for his physical prior to mandatory minicamp this week, sources say

[ChaosTheory]

Moore is getting his team physical done. Looks like he'll show up to mini camp. Hopefully that's the end of it

[Oldcolt]

If he has a good year make the man happy and extend him after the year

[apballin]

If he has a good year make the man happy and extend him after the year

If the year ends with a Superbowl ring then yea maybe

[AlwaysSunnyinIndy]

9 pages later:

Kenny is in attendance at the first session of this week's 3-day minicamp and is practicing today.


https://twitter.com/JoelAErickson/status/1534208606157123584

Kenny Moore is out here and participating

[rm1369]

If the year ends with a Superbowl ring then yea maybe

So that’s the only way he’d earn a contract extension, not by his play? I guess it’s in line with your belief that Wayne and Mathis weren’t selfish because they were Champions. In what is considered the ultimate team game I find it very strange logic.

[Colts And Orioles]

So that’s the only way he’d earn a contract extension, not by his play ??? I guess it’s in line with your belief that Reggie Wayne and Robert Mathis weren’t selfish because they were Champions. In what is considered the ultimate team game, I find it very strange logic.




o


1) l Terry Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls as a starting quarterback, and he was the MVP for 2 of them.

Dan Marino made it to one Super Bowl in his storied 17-year NFL career, and his team got blown off of the field.

I would not necessarily consider Terry Bradshaw to have been a better quarterback than Dan Marino, any more than I would necessarily consider Joe Torre to have been a better manager than Billy Martin.


2) l Prior to winning 2 Super Bowls at the very end of his career, many considered John Elway to have been a "loser" because his teams lost 3 Super Bowls that were not close ...... many of those same critics would later consider that same John Elway to be "gritty, gutsy, and the ultimate competitor" after his teams won those 2 Super Bowls when Elway was in his late 30's.

o

[apballin]

So that’s the only way he’d earn a contract extension, not by his play? I guess it’s in line with your belief that Wayne and Mathis weren’t selfish because they were Champions. In what is considered the ultimate team game I find it very strange logic.

Notice Aaron Donald didn’t have a problem getting paid, Tyreek Hill got traded and paid

2 things get you paid and give you leverage…. Being the best at your position or having a superbowl on your resume

[rm1369]

Notice Aaron Donald didn’t have a problem getting paid, Tyreek Hill got traded and paid

2 things get you paid and give you leverage…. Being the best at your position or having a superbowl on your resume

Guess it didn’t work for Wayne and Mathis, otherwise they wouldn’t have felt the need to sit out mandatory minicamp.

It is also possible to be underpaid and not be the best at your position or have won a SB. That you believe a previous SB win greatly increases a players value and leverage (over what their play dictates) makes me very thankful you aren’t making contract decisions for the team.

[apballin]

Guess it didn’t work for Wayne and Mathis, otherwise they wouldn’t have felt the need to sit out mandatory minicamp.

It is also possible to be underpaid and not be the best at your position or have won a SB. That you believe a previous SB win greatly increases a players value and leverage (over what their play dictates) makes me very thankful you aren’t making contract decisions for the team.

Kenny Moore is in no position to ask for more money if you believe he deserves more I’m grateful you’re not making any decisions or this team would be the Browns

[rm1369]

Kenny Moore is in no position to ask for more money if you believe he deserves more I’m grateful you’re not making any decisions or this team would be the Browns

I haven’t said they should give him more. I think he’s slightly underpaid, but not egregiously so. I just pointed out the only thing he had done was miss voluntary workouts when people complained about him not honoring his contract. I defended him for pushing and advocating for himself when others took a “shut up and play attitude.” But ultimately it is a business - for both sides. As I said, I also expect the team to do what’s in their best interest and that’s probably trade him next off season. I just think his value is more determined by his play than by the overall team accomplishments. If he has an excellent year yet Matt Ryan gets hurt and the team sucks in your world Kenny is less valuable. I simply disagree.

[apballin]

I haven’t said they should give him more. I think he’s slightly underpaid, but not egregiously so. I just pointed out the only thing he had done was miss voluntary workouts when people complained about him not honoring his contract. I defended him for pushing and advocating for himself when others took a “shut up and play attitude.” But ultimately it is a business - for both sides. As I said, I also expect the team to do what’s in their best interest and that’s probably trade him next off season. I just think his value is more determined by his play than by the overall team accomplishments. If he has an excellent year yet Matt Ryan gets hurt and the team sucks in your world Kenny is less valuable. I simply disagree.

Look he’s a good player I’m not debating that, I just feel like he totally botched this little contract situation. Doing this puts a bullseye on you as a player and when we needed him the most the last few games he didn’t do anything. Great players make plays in those games, Colts got him more help adding Ngakwe and Gilmore and he gets mad a better player came in the door making more. If Kenny can’t consistently shutout number 1 WRs, create turnovers, and step up in crucial situations with every thing in the line then he’s not valuable as he thinks he is. Win DPOY, win some playoff games, then we’ll talk